Selection politics and bias, Gold Squads unfairness etc.

[Hugh Jarse]

Sydney did, country was godawful horrible in our age group

If it is all about winning (and most of rep footy is), then the end justifies the means.

In this case the selectors chose a series of kids who were able to achieve the objective of beating Country. They did their job.

The Selectors are ultimately accountable for the results from the team they select, and even if Country were godawful horrible, history has confirmed that the Gordon/Manly "ring-ins" did the job required of them. Any speculation about what the result would have been had the Sydney team comprised of the boys who were in the initial squad, but later displaced by the Gordon/Manly latecomers, will forever remain speculation.

The training and game workload you identified is similar to what many of the boys are doing now, and an awful lot more than what I was doing when I was playing first grade rugby. One wonders when the kids actually get time to study, and just chill with their mates doing nothing. The latter activity, whilst frustrating as anything for todays helicopter parents, is vital activity for kids as part of the growing up process IMHO.

I think that the sports administrators try to cram too much in over too short a timeframe, particularly that there are both Clubs and Schools trying to run essentially independent pathways, and everyone is hell bent on ensuring that the experiences on the part of the pathway that they control is the bees knees.

Most kids such as yourself manage to make it work somehow, but playing and training at that level can not be sustained, and when the inevitable injury occurs if a proper rehabilitation does not happen - frequently simple rest is sufficient, things start going from bad to worse fairly quickly.

I'll admit that Teenage boys are tough - nearly fireproof, but sooner or later the tanks get emptied, especially if they have been operating at 100% all game. Outside backs particularly and front rowers get a fair opportunity to catch their breath during games. Boys wearing #6 to #12 are generally flat out all game, and if they aren't benched eventually they conk out.

There were a number of the Manly and Coasties U17s at TG Millner on Monday who played so hard over the tournament that they would have slept for two days straight if they had the chance. Same for the U16 Rats and Gordon boys.

 

[southsider]

If it is all about winning (and most of rep footy is), then the end justifies the means.

In this case the selectors chose a series of kids who were able to achieve the objective of beating Country. They did their job.

The Selectors are ultimately accountable for the results from the team they select, and even if Country were godawful horrible, history has confirmed that the Gordon/Manly "ring-ins" did the job required of them. Any speculation about what the result would have been had the Sydney team comprised of the boys who were in the initial squad, but later displaced by the Gordon/Manly latecomers, will forever remain speculation.

The training and game workload you identified is similar to what many of the boys are doing now, and an awful lot more than what I was doing when I was playing first grade rugby. One wonders when the kids actually get time to study, and just chill with their mates doing nothing. The latter activity, whilst frustrating as anything for todays helicopter parents, is vital activity for kids as part of the growing up process IMHO.

I think that the sports administrators try to cram too much in over too short a timeframe, particularly that there are both Clubs and Schools trying to run essentially independent pathways, and everyone is hell bent on ensuring that the experiences on the part of the pathway that they control is the bees knees.

Most kids such as yourself manage to make it work somehow, but playing and training at that level can not be sustained, and when the inevitable injury occurs if a proper rehabilitation does not happen - frequently simple rest is sufficient, things start going from bad to worse fairly quickly.

I'll admit that Teenage boys are tough - nearly fireproof, but sooner or later the tanks get emptied, especially if they have been operating at 100% all game. Outside backs particularly and front rowers get a fair opportunity to catch their breath during games. Boys wearing #6 to #12 are generally flat out all game, and if they aren't benched eventually they conk out.

There were a number of the Manly and Coasties U17s at TG Millner on Monday who played so hard over the tournament that they would have slept for two days straight if they had the chance. Same for the U16 Rats and Gordon boys.

so you'd be totally fine if that was your kid then? I think not! and I think you've totally missed my point, my point was the selectors picked a team which was then changed by the coach even though he hadn't seen many of the original squad play.

my overall point is that, this whole process may be inconvenient but so what? its only for a limited period of time and im sure all the players are stoked for the opportunity to trial for Sydney (I know one of them and I know he certainly is). Having these extra trials/trainings will make sure they pick the best possible team and at the end of the day isn't that all what really matters?

 

[forwards4ever]

However when you have a set of rules set out in the NSW Junior website, and you deviate from them, you upset a great many!

Selection into higher representative teams is based on the players’ performance in the NSWJRU State Championships"
This quote is from the only document about representative rugby on the NSW JRU website, titled "Junior Rep Pathway Brochure". Although it is dated 2011! There appears to be no update, therefore we must believe that this is still the procedure to be followed! ONLY THIS YEAR IT HASN'T BEEN!

An explanation as to WHY would seem appropriate!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

forwards4ever, that is a very interesting find.

Much of the debate southsider and myself have been having relates to Sydney Juniors Representative teams. A pedantic hairsplitter such as myself would simply point out that Sydney JRU is a simple affiliate of NSW JRU and is not bound by policies of that the parent organisation uses for their representative team.

So then.... The NSW JRU rep team selections. How are they chosen?

Many would suggest that the annual Sydney vs Country games determine who gets into the NSWJRU representative teams. The squads are generally announced immediately after the Sydney vs Country games. This suggests that the games on that day determine selection into high representative teams, and NOT performance in the NSWJRU State Championships.

With a new NSW JRU Representative Teams Manager this year, I look forward to him ensuring that the organisation follows its published policies.

Playing the devils advocate then, the Manly U17 boys who won the NSW JRU State championships will form the lions share of the NSW JRU Under 17 team, along with a fair proportion of Coasties. Having been the finalists at NSW JRU State Championships, they were clearly the two best performing teams at the NSW JRU State Championships. Funny that because at another irrelevant competition (irrelevant for the purposes of "Selection into higher representative teams"), the Coasties only managed to get two (2) boys nominated for the NSW Country representative squad.

Maybe Rugby Mum was right with her rant about how unfair the NSW Country U17 selections were given how close the Coasties were to Illawarra. According to NSW JRU, the NSW Country Championships do NOT matter for selection into NSW JRU U17's. The Coasties performed at NSW JRU State Championships, Illawarra did not.

 

[Top Cat]

Hugh,

Here is the 2011 Pathways brochure and it has yet to be updated. It clearly states that selection into the NSW team is based on City v's Country.

http://www.nswjuniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/NSWJuniorPathways2011.pdf

'Selection into higher representative teams is based on the players’ performance in the NSWJRUState Championships.'

This is true for the Sydney based players as they are then chosen for the Regional teams, however, it is untrue in relation to the Country players as the Country Team is selected the month before at the Country Championships.

'Selection into state squads is strictly limited to the participants representing either Sydney Junior Rugby Union or NSW Country Junior Rugby Union in their annual clash and is based on their performance on the day.
At the conclusion of each game both teams and parents assemble to hear the naming of the NSW Juniors team. Players are required to confirm selection by agreeing to be available for games against ACT and Queensland.'

As I stated in a previous post, it is easy for players to look impressive at the Country Championships especially against weaker opposition. One month later come the NSW State Championships and some but not all of the regional Country teams attend. It is here that the teams are more competitive and the players more skilful but it is irrelevant how poorly a player plays or whether their level of ability has been exposed they have already been selected for Country.
I video every game my sons play in and following the State Championships it clearly shows how farcical the Country selection can be.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

What hope have the kids and parents of knowing what is going on?

The one document from NSW JRU says
"Stage 1 - District/Country Zone State Championships (Under 10 to Under 17)
<blah blah> Selection into higher representative teams is based on the player's performance in the NSWJRU State Championships."

Yet the same document goes on to say:
"Stage 3 - Sydney Juniors versus Country NSWJRU Carnival (under 15, 16 and 17)
<blah, blah> Selection into state squads is strictly limited to the participants representing either Sydney Junior Rugby Union or NSW Country Junior Rugby Union in their annual clash and is based on their performance on the day."


Bearing in mind that this is a NSW JRU pathway document, At Under 17 level, the higher representative team following the State Champs is the State Squad. Entry into the U17 State Squad seems to be is based on the players performance in NSWJRU State Championships but strictly limited to the players participation in the Juniors vs Country match AND then based on their performance on the day.

Selection into NSW Country Junior representative teams seems to differ from the NSW JRU pathway in that selection into their higher representative teams is based on the player's performance at the NSW Country JRU championships.

Selection into the Sydney JRU higher representative teams seems to be based on NSW JRU State championship performance to get into a regional squad at U15 and U16 level, and then based on performance at the regional tournament. Under 17's seems to be based on the Daily Star Sign reading as published in the Daily Telegraph.

Bravo to the NSW Juniors who have actually published their pathway policy albeit with this seeming internal contradiction and 2 years out of date.

I can't seem to find any policy whatsoever regarding the Sydney Juniors pathway on either their old or new web site.

I guess if you publish a procedure or policy, then you have to comply with that procedure or policy. Publish nothing and you can do whatever takes your fancy, and no one can hold you to account. Maybe the SJRU Mandarins aren't so silly after all.

 

[sarcophilus]

There has been some venting on the u16s and u15s threads regarding this topic
I am still waiting for an explanation of how/why the committee predominantly from outside the MNZ? conspired with a coach and selectors from a club outside the MNZ? to select so many MNZ/Barbar players in the 16s

more legitimate maybe is the question of how does a player with potential from outside "the circle" eg from AICES or CCC or Country Schools get noticed.
I recently revisited Williamsons' "The Club" and was grabbed by the referral of fresh faces as "March champions". Players that are going to be world beaters that disappear after a month or two of playing. Unfortunately the lads from these less recognised associations are doomed to this perception as they do not have a "body of work" to fall back on.

Thats not to say some of the regular performers don't feel like "March champions" every year, and wonder when they will stop being used as a door mat.

 

[sarcophilus]

S'up Said
The problem with some of the selections is that there appears to be too much emphasis placed on participation in the NGS and the JGP. These programs are designed to recognize potential in the individual and develop that, as the administrators of the JGP will tell you selection in the program isn’t a guarantee of selection in representative sides. However it would appear that selector do put a lot of faith in the fact that you are in the NGS or JPG. I agree with Boof try coming from ACIES or country you do have to be a super star. On that point try being the kid who plays club rugby only, your chances of getting past district selection is next to zero and selection in the JGP is just about next to zero. If you don’t go to a rugby playing private school or a public sports high you have next to no hope regardless of how good you might be.

 

[Brainstrust]

There has been some venting on the u16s and u15s threads regarding this topic
I am still waiting for an explanation of how/why the committee predominantly from outside the MNZ? conspired with a coach and selectors from a club outside the MNZ? to select so many MNZ/Barbar players in the 16s

more legitimate maybe is the question of how does a player with potential from outside "the circle" eg from AICES or CCC or Country Schools get noticed.
I recently revisited Williamsons' "The Club" and was grabbed by the referral of fresh faces as "March champions". Players that are going to be world beaters that disappear after a month or two of playing. Unfortunately the lads from these less recognised associations are doomed to this perception as they do not have a "body of work" to fall back on.

Thats not to say some of the regular performers don't feel like "March champions" every year, and wonder when they will stop being used as a door mat.

your comments on the 16's and and MNZ selections is pretty interesting. I was pretty surprised myself with so many MNZ boys going through in the 16's, given the Sydney appointment looked like a bit of MWZ set up. The feed back I am hearing is that the Sydney coach went to great length to discover as much about all the boys as he could. He ran a very thorough and consultative process through out both the JSC and zone tournament. In the end i guess he chose to select boys that firstly that have proven form over time, and importatnly weren't penalised for the poor MNZ showing (coaches have a lot answer on that). Given the constant inference of selection bias, I would have to say that he was surprisingly fair to the MNZ boys. Although to be fair Gordon and Warringah have been easily the strongest 2 sides in the age group, so that would have been a good guide.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The NGS names are known to only a select few.

In NSW Joeys and Scots College do not participate in the NGS programme. Logistics with Borders for Joeys apparently.
Removing those boys from the Opens Schoolboys List, and the League triumverate from New (Milne, Lussick, and Moeroa) who probably don't have time to participate in NGS, there appears to be 6 NSW boys (out of 24) who are not in NGS programmes.
Pretty sure that all the Scots boys were in the NGS before they were withdrawn, and that the Joeys boys would have been invited if they were available for selection.

25% of the NSW boys have got earned their selection without being in the NGS.

 

[sarcophilus]

Damn
now i have the Goat herd song running through my head

 

[strokeside]

Anyone know what effect the axing of the Red's and Tah's academies (Sydney Daily Tele today) will have on the NGS etc?

 

[Rugby Mum]

Anyone know what effect the axing of the Red's and Tah's academies (Sydney Daily Tele today) will have on the NGS etc?[/quote
No more Tahs , Reds or Brumbies academies although these players will still be involved, playing in a second tier Super Rugby competition, which will incorporate these current and future academy players, being a new pathway. Possibly selected from JGS, NGS and current Championships, ( by talent scouts do now)and then to the second tier comp envisioned to begin in 2014. Rather than financing an Academy, Freeing up the funding from these academies, straight to paying the players in a second tier competition. Similar to the National Provincial Championships currently in New Zealand.

 

[Rugby Mum]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby-...tional-academies/story-fndpt9s1-1226679736546

 

[Inside Shoulder]

http://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby-...tional-academies/story-fndpt9s1-1226679736546

That should enhance our goal kickers' ability to kick pressure penalties. Not.
Suggesting that the inability to draw a crowd at 5pm lies behind the shorter games is utter balderdash: they don't want to commit to the extra hiring cost.
If Pulver thinks this is a crowd puller then he's dreaming.
Where is the dividend from the money made on the Lions tour being invested?
The next vintage of Hill of Grace?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Crazy Legs]

Sorry for butting in folks, long time reader first time writer. Just had a question about the NGS & JGS and what are the options now for 15 & 16 year old boys that may have some potential? The academies have lured a few handy young league players which I thought was good for the code?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Sorry for butting in folks, long time reader first time writer. Just had a question about the NGS & JGS and what are the options now for 15 & 16 year old boys that may have some potential? The academies have lured a few handy young league players which I thought was good for the code?

I am told by a participant that he was told by Facebook (!) that NGS was no more.
I have not seen any mention of Junior Gold Program being axed. Not that its a reliable source but the aru website still talks about the JGP (and still mentions NGS)
http://www.rugby.com.au/tryrugby/PathwaytoGold/Background/NationalGoldSquad.aspx

 

[Crazy Legs]

Thanks for clearing that up IS, most of the kids get their information from social media these days be it fact or fiction!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Thanks for clearing that up IS, most of the kids get their information from social media these days be it fact or fiction!

Hold on - what did I say?
Please tell me what I cleared up - this must be a Donald Runmsfeld unknown known: a category I dont think even Hugh Jarse has contemplated the existence of.
I have no idea what the present position is.
Maybe strokeside can clear it up?
Or Sideline Eye?
Or THE GURUS Lee Grant or George Smith.
This is how rumours get started.

 

[Lee Grant]

For those in the know it is an unknown unknown.

For those not in the know it is not.

But seriously, I have seen no mention that the Gold Squads will be dispensed with and I hope that the JGS isn't.

I see that as an avenue for lads who do not go to a big rugby school.
.