S
Spook
Guest
..or is he still a few years off?
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S
Spook
Guest
Happy New Year mate. It's going be interesting. He is a big lump of a lad - I think with some dedicated training and physical maturity he'll be extremely hard to stop. His pace looks decent as well despite his baggage and there is no denying his ball-playing skills. This year I hope to see improved game management from him, fitness and muchly improved defense. :thumb It would be a real waste if he missed out to other players because his heart was not in it.
Btw, bench or starting 10?
Btw, bench or starting 10?
Cutter
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
We only know his form from previous years, that he is fatter than he was and that he will probably improve. We cant be sure he will improve and its possible he could even go backwards, particularly if his application to the task is reflected by his off season.
So, my answer would be no and not applicable. He would need to improve a lot to make the Wallabies 22. He might make the EOYT.
So, my answer would be no and not applicable. He would need to improve a lot to make the Wallabies 22. He might make the EOYT.
Scarfman
Knitter of the Scarf
You know, 10 is a position that we play pretty well in the ANZAC nations. Look at all the crap Aussie 10s that are making fortunes in Europe.
I thought Cooper was nowhere near ready for Test matches but he played great in the Northern Hemisphere. I reckon if you can play 10 in the Super 14, you are ready to play against the NH teams. But against the Kiwi or Saffer backrows? Maybe not.
I thought Cooper was nowhere near ready for Test matches but he played great in the Northern Hemisphere. I reckon if you can play 10 in the Super 14, you are ready to play against the NH teams. But against the Kiwi or Saffer backrows? Maybe not.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
If Quade Cooper could make the matchday 22 on the 2008 EOYT there's no reason why Beale couldn't make it on the 2009 EOYT. Arguably, had he not been injured in the S14 final and then had his accident in the gym so that he missed the U20 and PNC (Pacific Nations Cup) tournaments, and all club riugby, he could have been preferred ahead of his good mate Quade for 2008.
I thought he was as least as good as Cooper in the Super 2008 Super14. Beale is 9 months younger IIRR but he's clocked up more Super14 hours than Quade.
He has his faults, as we all know, and me more than most since I have watched him since he was a 13 y.o. nipper.
He's too much of a grabber on defence and has to work on getting his shoulder into ball runners and driving with his back leg. I don't think it's a lack of ticker because he's not shy of getting his noggin into rucks; but if it is, Deans won't have a bar of him.
He also doesn't show enough urgency in defensive emergencies - a bit like Josh Holmes at the Brumbies.
I'm not so worried about his development when his team is on attack. He turned 20 just last week and I am confident that he will grow in his ability to boss the back line. I thought he grew a bit already in 2008 from 2007.
He is prone to do a few show pony things but I hope that he never gives up his chip and chase move. Amongst other things, it serves to fix the opposition. I hope that he gets back to his Mark Ella pass and run around move than he excelled at as a schoolboy. I can scarcely remember his doing it as a senior player.
Instead he seems to pass the pill and pull back without running around, and that serves to give the illusion of a forward pass.
Since last season we have heard about his putting on weight whilst injured and that shows a poor attitude that I have talked about before. He looked pretty agile the other day at training but the proof of the pudding :lmao: will be seen in a game.
I have a high regard for Berrick Barnes as all TYSers will know but he gets hurt a lot. And don't be surprised if Matt Giteau pisses off sooner rather than later.
Therefore we should all hope that Beale plays well enough in the Super14 to be at least considered for the winter tests or the Barbarians game. Quade Cooper couldn't have done much more on the EOYT but we need others like Kurtley to be putting up their hands to be in the mix.
This season we should all be watching Daruda, Lealiifano and To'omua this year too as we are only an injury or two, and a few million Euros, away from fly half disaster.
Scarfman
Some of the Oz flyhalves were crap when they left here but they have improved their game a lot over there.
"Compass" Dan Parks has been superseded as the Scotland flyhalf, but whereas before he would not have been considered for a Super12 berth, he certainly would be considered in a parallel universe for a Super14 berth in a 5th team if it started up in 2009 and he was transplanted there through a black hole.
There is no French qualified flyhalf playing better in the Top14 than Manny Edmonds and Brock James though I haven't seen Trinh-Duc for some time, and Michalak is finding some of his old form now.
But the really big improver has been Paul Warwick for Munster. Sure he's only a backup for ROG and plays fullback now and then, but people who saw him play in Oz wouldn't recognise him from the fellow who played for Manly and was flyhalf of the week for the Reds a few years back.
One of the Setanta commentators said after the Ireland squad was picked for the autumn tests that coach Kidney would have liked to have had Warwick as an option had he been eligible.
At the other end of the scale you have Chris Malone who stills plays like the Chris Malone at Manly and Uni. 'Molly' is still a plodder yet he's the back up to Nick Evans at Quins. But if he can back up in the GP he could for a 5th Oz Super team too.
Wrong thread? Excuuuuse me.
I thought he was as least as good as Cooper in the Super 2008 Super14. Beale is 9 months younger IIRR but he's clocked up more Super14 hours than Quade.
He has his faults, as we all know, and me more than most since I have watched him since he was a 13 y.o. nipper.
He's too much of a grabber on defence and has to work on getting his shoulder into ball runners and driving with his back leg. I don't think it's a lack of ticker because he's not shy of getting his noggin into rucks; but if it is, Deans won't have a bar of him.
He also doesn't show enough urgency in defensive emergencies - a bit like Josh Holmes at the Brumbies.
I'm not so worried about his development when his team is on attack. He turned 20 just last week and I am confident that he will grow in his ability to boss the back line. I thought he grew a bit already in 2008 from 2007.
He is prone to do a few show pony things but I hope that he never gives up his chip and chase move. Amongst other things, it serves to fix the opposition. I hope that he gets back to his Mark Ella pass and run around move than he excelled at as a schoolboy. I can scarcely remember his doing it as a senior player.
Instead he seems to pass the pill and pull back without running around, and that serves to give the illusion of a forward pass.
Since last season we have heard about his putting on weight whilst injured and that shows a poor attitude that I have talked about before. He looked pretty agile the other day at training but the proof of the pudding :lmao: will be seen in a game.
I have a high regard for Berrick Barnes as all TYSers will know but he gets hurt a lot. And don't be surprised if Matt Giteau pisses off sooner rather than later.
Therefore we should all hope that Beale plays well enough in the Super14 to be at least considered for the winter tests or the Barbarians game. Quade Cooper couldn't have done much more on the EOYT but we need others like Kurtley to be putting up their hands to be in the mix.
This season we should all be watching Daruda, Lealiifano and To'omua this year too as we are only an injury or two, and a few million Euros, away from fly half disaster.
Scarfman
Some of the Oz flyhalves were crap when they left here but they have improved their game a lot over there.
"Compass" Dan Parks has been superseded as the Scotland flyhalf, but whereas before he would not have been considered for a Super12 berth, he certainly would be considered in a parallel universe for a Super14 berth in a 5th team if it started up in 2009 and he was transplanted there through a black hole.
There is no French qualified flyhalf playing better in the Top14 than Manny Edmonds and Brock James though I haven't seen Trinh-Duc for some time, and Michalak is finding some of his old form now.
But the really big improver has been Paul Warwick for Munster. Sure he's only a backup for ROG and plays fullback now and then, but people who saw him play in Oz wouldn't recognise him from the fellow who played for Manly and was flyhalf of the week for the Reds a few years back.
One of the Setanta commentators said after the Ireland squad was picked for the autumn tests that coach Kidney would have liked to have had Warwick as an option had he been eligible.
At the other end of the scale you have Chris Malone who stills plays like the Chris Malone at Manly and Uni. 'Molly' is still a plodder yet he's the back up to Nick Evans at Quins. But if he can back up in the GP he could for a 5th Oz Super team too.
Wrong thread? Excuuuuse me.
Lee Grant said:
Whilst I agree that pass and wrap/follow is the traditional flyhalf play, and how I like the flyhalf to play, I do remember watching my avatar do what you describe your avatar doing at times. When my avatar did he he was often criticised as shirking the hard work, afraid of getting hit, but I have distinct memories of a commentator (not sure if it was Gordon Bray or not) saying that what he was trying to do, by doing the long pass and then drawing away backwards, was to try to draw the defence into him, or back out of the defensive line. That makes some sense to me.
But with your avatar, he is such a dangerous runner outwide, the pass and follow needs to be his #1 option I reckon.
naza
Alan Cameron (40)
Noddy said:
This isn't 1980. Modern day defences are far too good to fall for pissweak smoke and mirror moves like the run around. Attempt it and you're more likely to have your flyhalf receive a hospital pass, give away an intercept or just crab sideways rather than draw a defender.
I'm hoping Beale starts learning from his errors. My main concern is he doesn't seem patient enough and keeps looking for the miracle play. With the extra size, would like to see him taking on the defensive line a bit more, look to offload and throw short passes.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
Beale shouldn't worry, nor should we be concerned for him, about where he is in the pecking order as we speak.
It's only a pimple on the bum of Australian rugby as to whether he is ranked 3rd or 4th or 5th at the moment. He has a least 10 years of professional rugby ahead of him, provided he stays in our code; so there is lots of time for him if he is good enough.
He's just turned 20 though and the main thing is that he shows the attributes this year that mark him as a potential Wallaby for our international flyhalf cupboard in the near future. A lot of that will have to come from him but l hope that Deans, as the de facto Oz back coach, tells him what he has to work on during the S14.
This should go through Tahs coach Hickey and he should monitor him in those areas.
It's only a pimple on the bum of Australian rugby as to whether he is ranked 3rd or 4th or 5th at the moment. He has a least 10 years of professional rugby ahead of him, provided he stays in our code; so there is lots of time for him if he is good enough.
He's just turned 20 though and the main thing is that he shows the attributes this year that mark him as a potential Wallaby for our international flyhalf cupboard in the near future. A lot of that will have to come from him but l hope that Deans, as the de facto Oz back coach, tells him what he has to work on during the S14.
This should go through Tahs coach Hickey and he should monitor him in those areas.
of course much will depend on form in this year's s14, but you would expect Barnes and Gits, and then probably Cooper would start ahead of him in the pecking order. His chance is a spot on the bench, but that could also depend on the rest of the squad. For mine, I'd have Benny Lucas as the back up scrummie (assuming he can reproduce his 08 form). If you have him, and then Gits and Barnes in the squad, you sure as hell don't need a specialist flyhalf on the bench.
T
TOCC
Guest
how good is it that this is actually a issue..
remember back to the years between like 1999-2007, there was only 1 5/8 in the country who was really in contention..
Now we have Giteau, Barnes, Cooper and Beale, pretty soon we could also have Lealifano, O'Connor and To'omua all fighting for the position as well... Its almost like the dawn of a golden age of 5/8's for Australia, ok maybe a little over the top, but it is good to see. Even better to see is that each 5/8 brings a little something different to the game, they all play different styles and all have different attributes, makes for a healthy selection issue.
remember back to the years between like 1999-2007, there was only 1 5/8 in the country who was really in contention..
Now we have Giteau, Barnes, Cooper and Beale, pretty soon we could also have Lealifano, O'Connor and To'omua all fighting for the position as well... Its almost like the dawn of a golden age of 5/8's for Australia, ok maybe a little over the top, but it is good to see. Even better to see is that each 5/8 brings a little something different to the game, they all play different styles and all have different attributes, makes for a healthy selection issue.
F
formeropenside
Guest
TOCC said:
I'd rather have a bunch of THP's, myself.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
So would a lot of us, but we know that is never going to happen for us in Oz unless the rugby planets are all in alignment and there is a "Village Of The Damned" impregnation of all fertile females in the country with THP sperm.
But TOCC is right: it is good to be talking about a situation that I postulated in 2004 on the other forum, when we had the year of the flyhalf in Oz schoolboy rugby, yet not even knowing about Barnes or To'omua then.
Our assumption will be that we will get great depth at 10 as the best 2 or 3 become evident in a year or two.
But it may be just width: several players of more or less the same ability and no real standouts.
I hope that it is true depth. That is the real thing we should be concerned about - not the names of the players who make it, or don't.
But TOCC is right: it is good to be talking about a situation that I postulated in 2004 on the other forum, when we had the year of the flyhalf in Oz schoolboy rugby, yet not even knowing about Barnes or To'omua then.
Our assumption will be that we will get great depth at 10 as the best 2 or 3 become evident in a year or two.
But it may be just width: several players of more or less the same ability and no real standouts.
I hope that it is true depth. That is the real thing we should be concerned about - not the names of the players who make it, or don't.
Cutter
Nicholas Shehadie (39)
If it was a Bledisloe, atm I wouldnt want Cooper or Beale on the pitch. So, in my mind, they arent really fighting for a spot, they are fighting to be ranked 3, 4 and 5 (if you include the others). This season may change that perception, but that is my view at the moment.
T
TOCC
Guest
^^
well no, dont suspect anyone would... but we arent talking about right now, we are talking about after this Super14 season when the wallabies are next chosen..
well no, dont suspect anyone would... but we arent talking about right now, we are talking about after this Super14 season when the wallabies are next chosen..
TOCC said:
I reckon that's a really important point TOCC. If you were to do an all round analysis of each player right now, maybe Beale would come 4th or so.
But what if you're more interested in one or two attributes more than the others, like say running the backline, and on-the-hoof vision?
The difference that Beale made to the Tahs in the S14 final - when they were at one point wooping the 'Saders and then went to shit when he hobbled off - wasn't lost on AntipoDeans. These are also qualities that Deans seems to value highly.
There's also a big hole at 15 still, where a Cooper or even Barnes could find themselves? And as mentioned there are always injuries.
Being a theoretical 4th in line might not mean much come next May/June.
T
TOCC
Guest
i suppose its a bit hard to pin-point what each of the 5/8's playing styles are.
Giteau, whilst not the best pass of the 4 he probably has the best running game(which he hasnt used at 5/8) and he has a pretty good kicking game. On top of that due to experience he has the best vision and and composure out of the 4.
Barnes, once again not the best pass of the 4, almost a percentage style 5/8, very good kicking game and excellent defence. His vision and composure seems to be quite good, never a player to let you down but he lacks the 'x-factor' the other 3 have.
Cooper, great pass and pretty good footwork, self-admittedly he says he tries to model himself on Carlos Spencer. Still lacking defensively and in terms of vision, i suppose both could come with experience.
Beale, hard to say really, he hasnt played the game which comes natural to him, going on 2008 he played almost a percentage style game but we know he is capable of much more, im still struggling to figure out what style of game he plays. Good pass and good kicking, he appears in a style somewhere between Cooper and Giteau.
now thats from what i have seen of the players, obviously NSW fans have seen more of Beale so they might be able to give better insight.
In terms of a pecking order, i would say for the 5/8 position it is currently
1. Giteau
2. Barnes
3. Cooper
4. Beale
Cooper and Beale are practically on par, Cooper gets one up because he has went on the NH tour.
Giteau, whilst not the best pass of the 4 he probably has the best running game(which he hasnt used at 5/8) and he has a pretty good kicking game. On top of that due to experience he has the best vision and and composure out of the 4.
Barnes, once again not the best pass of the 4, almost a percentage style 5/8, very good kicking game and excellent defence. His vision and composure seems to be quite good, never a player to let you down but he lacks the 'x-factor' the other 3 have.
Cooper, great pass and pretty good footwork, self-admittedly he says he tries to model himself on Carlos Spencer. Still lacking defensively and in terms of vision, i suppose both could come with experience.
Beale, hard to say really, he hasnt played the game which comes natural to him, going on 2008 he played almost a percentage style game but we know he is capable of much more, im still struggling to figure out what style of game he plays. Good pass and good kicking, he appears in a style somewhere between Cooper and Giteau.
now thats from what i have seen of the players, obviously NSW fans have seen more of Beale so they might be able to give better insight.
In terms of a pecking order, i would say for the 5/8 position it is currently
1. Giteau
2. Barnes
3. Cooper
4. Beale
Cooper and Beale are practically on par, Cooper gets one up because he has went on the NH tour.
liquor box
Peter Sullivan (51)
naza said:
I disagree, a well played run around is still the best move in the book- if it is practiced to perfection it will always bring more success than failure
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