• Welcome to the forums of Green & Gold Rugby.
    We have recently made some changes to the amount of discussions boards on the forum.
    Over the coming months we will continue to make more changes to make the forum more user friendly for all to use.
    Thanks, Admin.

The (sm)All Blacks?

Status
Not open for further replies.

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
Interesting article from yesterday. . .

Little wonder Small Blacks are still thoroughbreds

Argentina have the unenviable task of trying to stop New Zealand making it 19 wins and one draw from their past 20 matches tomorrow morning. It is an incredible record. They are an incredible team. There can be few sports where one team maintain dominance for such duration as the All Blacks. And not just on the scoreboard.

The results are the consequence of an international team having the courage to ignore world trends and go their own way. In Darwinian terms, New Zealand professional rugby evolved one side of the mountain and the rest of the world the other. The rest of the world sees professional evolution in terms of size.

New Zealand are moving in another direction. Under Steve Hansen they are intent, to use horse racing parlance, on stripping fitter. The world’s best team are not trying to gain weight, but lose it. A couple of kilos here and there keeps them travelling at a speed that the rest of the world cannot maintain for the full 80 minutes.

Stuart Lancaster states that England’s players must be fitter. This is presumably a reaction to the summer tour and “lessons learnt”. But Kiwi fitness is only half the story. Their willingness to sacrifice size for speed breaks the mould that professional coaches have used to create their players.

The scenario is similar to the early years of Martin Pipe, the legendary National Hunt trainer. While the traditional world of jump racing was intent on admiring the size and scope of a steeplechaser, Pipe was revising the game with his adoption of interval training. Instead of a good old-fashioned canter, his horses were put on all-weather gallops and worked relentlessly like track athletes.

For a long time you could recognise a Pipe horse by the skinny frame, the absence of girth. Purists didn’t like the look of them but punters did. They won and kept winning until other trainers decided to adopt and adapt similar training techniques.

The All Blacks remind me of those early Pipe days. Their winning record is outstanding and their opposition seems intent on ignoring the obvious lessons to be learnt. They are — like Pipe’s horses used to be — fitter. The purpose of extra fitness is to play at a greater pace and the purpose of greater pace is to run teams off their feet, run them ragged as Pipe’s horses once did. The All Blacks’ great rivals, South Africa, have traditionally been bigger opponents and that physical edge was often to the Springboks’ advantage in the amateur days when the All Blacks went toe to toe. England have a pack that, in an arm wrestle, has the size and muscle to wear New Zealand down. This is why the All Blacks — and Hansen, in particular — have been redefining the way they play the game.

There are inherent risks. If Argentina can turn tomorrow’s match into 80 minutes of scrum and attrition, they have a chance, but if the South Americans are stretched . . .

. . .

To see the All Blacks at close range is to be astonished by the way in which they have laid to waste the clichés about size mattering quite so much as we are told it does. The half backs — the two Aarons, Smith and Cruden — would have been regarded as a diminutive duo in the 1970s. Their ability to keep the tempo of the game as high as possible is worth more than any amount of extra bulk.

Conrad and Ben Smith could have been All Blacks from 50 years ago. Tall and rangy, but blokes you would pass in the street without noting their physique. Their rugby brains are quite another matter.

Up front there is no better combination of locks at the moment than Brodie Retallick and Sam Whitelock. These are lean, angular men, as are Kieran Read and Richie McCaw in the breakdown. Dane Coles, their hooker, is the exception to the rule. He was told to find a few more kilos if he wanted to make the hooker’s shirt his, primarily because he is a natural lightweight.

At the highest level in rugby, speed is trumping size and brain beating brawn; until others understand and emulate, the All Blacks will remain on a higher plane of professionalism to the rest of the world.


I deliberately left his name to the end, but it's from Stuart Barnes in The Times. The theme is not something new and he may be stretching the 'little' idea a bit too far — or a little too far with a bit of an idea? — but does have the basis of something in there.

The ABs aren't exactly small (and we don't have to stretch the memory on that). But they are not overly bulked and are optimised to play a faster, more skillful game for longer. It's the direction of Rugby now (unless some new 'interpretations' get introduced).
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Interesting stuff, @kiap.
For some time, the direct comparison between All Blacks and other teams, including the Wallabies, has been that they look leaner to me, and less "gym-bulked". The S&C programs over there have looked to be ahead of most of the rest of the world for a while.
I think there was a little of it in the Waratahs this year - Cheika had them fitter and finishing games well (winning second halves a lot), which has been an All Black feature. In seasons past, the Tahs had a big pack that was solid in set pieces, but lacked dynamism in collisions. This year they won them more, played at higher pace for longer and strung 9 wins together on the trot. The All Blacks win collisions more often than not.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
It works for the All Blacks because they have a number of naturally big framed players.

McCaw is bigger than almost all 7's and some 6's so stripping down is less of a concern. I doubt they'd give Matt Todd the same advice.

Likewise Read is larger than many similar 8's like Parisse and Harinordaquay so stripping weight for speed is something he can do.

If Palu did that he would likely not become much quicker and possibly be less effective too.

My point is it's amazing what you can do when you have the right athletes to begin with.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
It works for the All Blacks because they have a number of naturally big framed players.

McCaw is bigger than almost all 7's and some 6's so stripping down is less of a concern. I doubt they'd give Matt Todd the same advice.

Likewise Read is larger than many similar 8's like Parisse and Harinordaquay so stripping weight for speed is something he can do.

If Palu did that he would likely not become much quicker and possibly be less effective too.

My point is it's amazing what you can do when you have the right athletes to begin with.
I completely agree, but there are plenty of athletes of comparable build to McCaw and Read in Oz rugby, and I have no doubt we could be getting more out of them. Although, McCaw is a freak.
The S&C approaches have to evolve as the game does. The AB approach has long involved very different, and very specific programmes for each player with some "out there" stuff in some cases, such as "real" farm-work etc.
It was interesting that Dave Dennis (on the podcast) explained the very tailored, and different approach the Waratahs took under Cheika. It could be coincidence, or it could be something else that notoriously fragile players like Palu, Kepu, Horne, TPN et al have had largely more injury-free seasons, and played many more minutes than in the past.
 

kiap

Steve Williams (59)
My point is it's amazing what you can do when you have the right athletes to begin with.
Yeah, but they've got to be brought through the system and learn how to play skillfully - then be selected and train to play in that way. NZ don't have more of the right athletes over SA or Aus (it's not the numbers that go their way but the 'smarts' in their rugby culture). I think Australia is also trying to advance on this path, for what it's worth.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
Can't see how anyone would suggest Retallick isn't a large man. And for a lock I think he is one of the heaviest going round. But wouldn't it be awesome if Skelton could strip down to Retallick's weight and could consequently put in a full game at full pace.

I can see the 'lean and hungry' look in Read, McCaw, Luatua though. In Australia, think Luke Jones. There must be more.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Retallick - 2.04m; 121 kg
Skelton - 2.03m; 137kg
Douglas - 2.02m; 123kg
Horwill - 2.01m; 117 kg
Simmons - 2 m; 115 kg
Carter - 2m; 110kg

So douglas is similar height and weight to retallick- and many posters (me included) think he was pretty important to oz rugby to retain.
Probably onto something there based on stats alone.
 

Ruggo

Mark Ella (57)
Interesting stuff, @kiap.
For some time, the direct comparison between All Blacks and other teams, including the Wallabies, has been that they look leaner to me, and less "gym-bulked". The S&C programs over there have looked to be ahead of most of the rest of the world for a while.
I think there was a little of it in the Waratahs this year - Cheika had them fitter and finishing games well (winning second halves a lot), which has been an All Black feature. In seasons past, the Tahs had a big pack that was solid in set pieces, but lacked dynamism in collisions. This year they won them more, played at higher pace for longer and strung 9 wins together on the trot. The All Blacks win collisions more often than not.


One player that sticks out for me is Ben Mowen. Trimmed down at the Brumbies and they got fantastic value for it.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Ruggo he also had to bulk up at the Tahs to crack it as a Super Rugby player though.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Yeah, but they've got to be brought through the system and learn how to play skillfully - then be selected and train to play in that way. NZ don't have more of the right athletes over SA or Aus (it's not the numbers that go their way but the 'smarts' in their rugby culture). I think Australia is also trying to advance on this path, for what it's worth.

Physically, Higginbotham and Read are surely comparable. The difference is one didn't take rugby seriously until he was 20 and the other came through the rep system.

I don't think Mowen would be a fair comparison because he just isn't anywhere near the athlete of Read.
 

Pfitzy

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Let's not label these guys superhuman freaks just yet.

They're part of a system that has its players work harder due to higher level of competition.

I'm hardly surprised Deans had to get players to trim down BTW - after Knuckles decided fatter was better, a lot of guys stopped looking at their road work like it was a real training tool
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I'm hardly surprised Deans had to get players to trim down BTW - after Knuckles decided fatter was better, a lot of guys stopped looking at their road work like it was a real training tool

what pisses me off is that most of my career was "built" on the knuckles approach but i was too old when he took the reigns
 

waiopehu oldboy

George Smith (75)
Umm, AB pack outweighed Argies by 13kg tonight & regularly outweigh France, SA & Oz so I'm not sure if Barnes isn't, as is his wont & to coin a phrase, talking out his arse.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
Umm, AB pack outweighed Argies by 13kg tonight & regularly outweigh France, SA & Oz so I'm not sure if Barnes isn't, as is his wont & to coin a phrase, talking out his arse.
I think the point isn't that they're small, but that they don't carry unnecessary bulk - they're lean and use all their mass well. They look it, to me.Just fit.
Maybe the black is just so slimming? ;)
 

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
The S&C approaches have to evolve as the game does. The AB approach has long involved very different, and very specific programmes for each player with some "out there" stuff in some cases, such as "real" farm-work etc.
It was interesting that Dave Dennis (on the podcast) explained the very tailored, and different approach the Waratahs took under Cheika. It could be coincidence, or it could be something else that notoriously fragile players like Palu, Kepu, Horne, TPN et al have had largely more injury-free seasons, and played many more minutes than in the past.

Personalized training regiments are starting to drip through the professional leagues over here in the States as well. The Philadelphia Eagles (my gridiron team - Fly Eagles, Fly!) have a relatively new coach named Chip Kelley who shares a startling number of similarities with Cheika.

He's totally changed the way the Eagles run their offense related to everyone else in the league, is an absolute master of man-management and has brought their S&C to an entirely new and borderline futuristic level. Here's a good article to give you an idea of what's he's like: http://articles.philly.com/2014-09-05/news/53606232_1_kelly-novacare-complex-eagles

Being in medicine I'm sure you're more than familiar with the subtle differences in physiology that everyone has. When you're looking to maximize performance and have a multi-million dollar budget to work with, programs that drill down to individual diets and prehab routines are really the only way to go :)

Properly tracking and managing the workload of individuals makes it much easier to maximize their power output over time without breaking them. The technology to do all this has come a long way in being functional for athletics in the past 5-10 years, now it's just up to the coaches to adopt them.

As spectators we pretty much just pirely win as a result of this. Players that hit harder, run faster and don't get injured as often - what's not to love?
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I'm not sure Barnes is right here. Guys like Retallick and Read are big men. Read in particular is spectacularly athletic and skilful for a bloke of his size, but small he isn't. There's a certain minimum size you need to be an international rugby forward and there's no real getting away from that. I stood up close to them when I met a few of the AB forwards in a hotel during the RWC in 2011 and they're large alright. I'm 194cm and 100kg's and they seemed imposing. The other packs in the RC are of a similar size.

Barnes is right when he says that fitness is key and it is. But the other thing the AB's do well is technique and zeroing in on opposition weakness. They have ruthless attention to detail on each of those things. Their body height is generally immaculate, they commit the right amount of numbers to the collision and their support play formation and re-alignment (to use a Dwyer-ism) is first class. That, as much as any other thing, is why they are the best at what they do. It's all top two inches stuff and it's what we need to be doing too.

Our guys are good athletes too and the right size, but I think our forward play technique has significant room for improvement.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top