Sydney Subbies 2020

[Pfitzy]

Well its nearly November so let's kick off another thread.

Discussion at Presentation Night was around competition structure. And it needs to be as all Divisions had their own Black Sheep. Similar to 2018, there was one round where 10% of scheduled matches were forfeits and that isn't good for the game.

Top three divisions are probably going to end up similar to this with Balmain sliding hard:

Div 1
1 Mosman
2 Drummoyne
3 Colleagues
4 Waverley
5 Blue Mountains
6 Petersham
7 Knox OB
8 Forest

Div 2
1 Hunters Hill
2 St Patricks
3 Lindfield
4 Hills
5 UNSW
6 BOBs
7 Epping
8 Newport

Div 3
1 Redfield OB
2 Blacktown
3 Old Iggues
4 Beecroft
5 HAC
6 Hawkesbury Valley
7 Sydney Harlequins
8 Canterbury

Division 4 then becomes a "Thirds Optional" competition, because once again Halligan Cup showed serious numbers for some clubs and they could be good for a 12:55PM game

Div 4
1 Balmain
2 Brothers
3 Briars
4 Sydney Irish
5 Mac Uni
6 Oatley
7 Saints
8 Raptors - promoted mainly on their numbers which were good the last 10 rounds. They've got personnel to burn, and their success will only improve that.

Division 5 should be for those with aspiration for a second team - certainly the Renegades fit this description - and regardless of the strength of the competition these 2nd Grades need somewhere to play:

Div 5
1 Burraneer - can put out a Colts team so push that angle
2 North Cronulla
3 Dukes
4 Convicts
5 Lane Cove
6 Kings OB - 2 x regular Halligan = 1 x Division 5 club
7 Renegades - always trying, regularly failing
8 Wakehurst

Of the remaining clubs, you could easily move Chatswood up in place of Wakehurst, but the rest seem to have found a fairly solid place at one team and due to various factors can't yet move.

Div 6
1 Engadine
2 Maccabi
3 Merrylands
4 Savers
5 Chatswood
6 Menai
7 Dee Why / Terrey Hills - but after some questions over this merger, might be finished?
8 Colleagues 6ths - they can find some capable guys to play at 3PM I'm sure


You would have to think that an injection from some of the larger clubs with excess numbers would help a lot of these clubs - particularly for the lower north shore and beaches teams.

 

[Ozzie Bob]

Pfitzy!

It will be very interesting to see what happens in 2020. I notice that you have Quins and Canterbury in Div 3 replacing Brothers and Newport who you have promoted to Div 2 over Redfield.

I think the main thing subbies have to get right in 2020 is the number of grades per division. Is it time to get rid of 5th grade for 1st Div, 4th Grade for 2nd Div and colts for 3rd Div????

Subbies is supposed to be a social hit out with the better players playing in the higher grades within a club. Players these days are time poor and may not want to commit to a whole season. It is time to take a more flexible approach and help the clubs build their playing numbers up. It is not just an issue facing subbies it is an issue facing Rugby all around Australia.

 

[Pfitzy]

Pfitzy!

Bobster!

Redfield have climbed the ranks very quickly, however I felt their performances across the Grades weren't quite as strong as Newport.

Likewise if Forest AND Hunter's Hill felt they wanted to go up, maybe Knox OB could take a year in 2nd Div.

I am told that Quins and Berries are sick of 4th Division being a dumping ground, and they're going to nominate their 3 Grades to go up, then have the Colts argument later.

Briars also thinking about going up and they've got the colts and pathway to keep it going IMHO.

I think the main thing subbies have to get right in 2020 is the number of grades per division. Is it time to get rid of 5th grade for 1st Div, 4th Grade for 2nd Div and colts for 3rd Div????

I think dropping Colts altogether for 3rd Div would be a backward step. Clubs are already crippled in some ways by the schools system taking good players out of circulation for a couple of years at a time, so maintaining Colts helps maintain Seniors. We're only a couple of years into that experiment so let's have it run.

What I've also heard is that some clubs who pulled a Colts side out of nowhere actually grabbed a Premier Colts team - who are U20 and wanted to play together another year. Radford Cup is U21 so perfect pathway, and potentially a recruiting channel for new seniors.

I think 5th Grade needs to be dropped for First Div BUT it won't solve the issue of First Division clubs have 6 or 7 Grades to run around in Halligan Cup. Quite frankly I think these First Div clubs need to show a bit of leadership and form regular Masters competitions like O35/O40 or find ways to help other clubs with these excess player numbers.

Subbies is supposed to be a social hit out with the better players playing in the higher grades within a club. Players these days are time poor and may not want to commit to a whole season. It is time to take a more flexible approach and help the clubs build their playing numbers up. It is not just an issue facing subbies it is an issue facing Rugby all around Australia.

Agreed - the lower 3 Divisions often have size/talent mismatches due to the annual recruitment drive success or failure. Potentially some players leave because they don't have a 2nd or 3rd Grade and fear First Grade size/talent.

We're looking to get 2 Grades + Colts up and it won't be easy, but this year we're starting recruitment earlier than ever and we've got a new location with NO CONCRETE CRICKET PITCH! Heck we've even got CHANGE ROOMS (small tho they are) and RUNNING WATER!

 

[Rugby Central]

We're looking to get 2 Grades + Colts up and it won't be easy, but this year we're starting recruitment earlier than ever and we've got a new location with NO CONCRETE CRICKET PITCH! Heck we've even got CHANGE ROOMS (small tho they are) and RUNNING WATER!

But does it have a fence?!?!?!?! Priorities Pfitzy

 

[Pfitzy]

But does it have a fence?!?!?!?! Priorities Pfitzy

I'm led to believe it will have fencing of some sort... tho hardly your traditional picket these days

We will at least have higher quality lights, a field of the proper dimensions, and a lockable canteen. All I need to figure out is how to get the loig club to another venue before 2020 and we're set.

 

[HeavyB]

Bobster!

Redfield have climbed the ranks very quickly, however I felt their performances across the Grades weren't quite as strong as Newport.

I think Newport would probably only want to go up from a logistical point of view. I think they'd struggle enormously in every grade except colts if they went up.. I think looking at BOBs you can see its a pretty big jump, particularly for a mid table 1st grade side in div 3.

Colties is an interesting one, I question why Shute clubs need 3 colts sides. You end up with pretty average high school players playing 3rd grade colts somewhere, they're not going to go on and play grade at these clubs, it doesn't make much sense to me. Those players could mean something to the subbies system.

 

[Bigmozz70]

You might find it interesting to note the wakehurst guys reckon they can field a colts team
EDIT: at least the ones I've taked to

 

[Pfitzy]

You might find it interesting to note the wakehurst guys reckon they can field a colts team
EDIT: at least the ones I've taked to

Would love to see that after I saw them proposing it on their FB page - they've got juniors so it would be great if they could build that bridge into their senior ranks, and start pushing for 2 Grades regularly. They've also got a ground and canteen onsite so they've got a legup on many other small clubs.

Getting a squad of about 25 together and taking on Radford Cup over a dozen rounds would be great for a lot of clubs. We'd love to have 2 grades + Colts kicking off around 1PM and going through to 5. Better canteen, more fans, getting a club feel together that is hard with 1 Grade at 3PM.

 

[Bigmozz70]

Would love to see that after I saw them proposing it on their FB page - they've got juniors so it would be great if they could build that bridge into their senior ranks, and start pushing for 2 Grades regularly. They've also got a ground and canteen onsite so they've got a legup on many other small clubs.

Getting a squad of about 25 together and taking on Radford Cup over a dozen rounds would be great for a lot of clubs. We'd love to have 2 grades + Colts kicking off around 1PM and going through to 5. Better canteen, more fans, getting a club feel together that is hard with 1 Grade at 3PM.

Agreed. I'm potentially one of said guys. The issue I have, however, is that while I grew up on union I can't really get behind how its run in Australia as a whole (classist elitism is one of my big issues politically) and I don't think badly of union clubs even at a high level but I'm not sure I'd end up wanting to directly support the ARU. Genuinely thinking of playing AFL or league. Ultimately I'll probably go with what I know and the colts team will probably be fielded regardless but I just kinda needed to vent. I hope Wakehurst do manage.

 

[Pfitzy]

Agreed. I'm potentially one of said guys. The issue I have, however, is that while I grew up on union I can't really get behind how its run in Australia as a whole (classist elitism is one of my big issues politically) and I don't think badly of union clubs even at a high level but I'm not sure I'd end up wanting to directly support the ARU. Genuinely thinking of playing AFL or league. Ultimately I'll probably go with what I know and the colts team will probably be fielded regardless but I just kinda needed to vent. I hope Wakehurst do manage.

Understand what you mean. Can be a little hard to run a club where the top level don't seem to give a shit - AFL supports their grassroots very well.

I love the game itself - particularly playing - and figure its worth going around another year for the camaraderie and helping our club support charity.

I'll be having serious thoughts this time next year if things don't pick up tho.

 

[Bigmozz70]

Understand what you mean. Can be a little hard to run a club where the top level don't seem to give a shit - AFL supports their grassroots very well.

I love the game itself - particularly playing - and figure its worth going around another year for the camaraderie and helping our club support charity.

I'll be having serious thoughts this time next year if things don't pick up tho.

The worst part honestly is how there isn't localised competition. Every other large sport does that for a reason. I planned on playing footy on account of local clubs being closer than my former sport, fencing, which is in the city. If I have to play Dukes etc that will be counterproductive.

 

[Nath]

Might learn something about the world if ya get out of ya little north shore bubble every once in a while.

 

[Pfitzy]

The worst part honestly is how there isn't localised competition. Every other large sport does that for a reason. I planned on playing footy on account of local clubs being closer than my former sport, fencing, which is in the city. If I have to play Dukes etc that will be counterproductive.

Other sports are doing localised competitions well. Hills Football Association formed out here because their teams from Kellyville, Castle Hill, etc. were sick of going all the way to Granville for games. They've got 20 clubs within a 15-minute drive of each other even in Saturday morning traffic, and that helps when some families have to go to multiple games.

I don't mind a bus trip for rugby, but its a different story if you're only doing it for 1 Grade versus 3. Becomes a very long day.

 

[Bigmozz70]

Might learn something about the world if ya get out of ya little north shore bubble every once in a while.

I grew up in the western suburbs and used togo into the city 3 times a week during high school but go off.

 

[Bigmozz70]

Other sports are doing localised competitions well. Hills Football Association formed out here because their teams from Kellyville, Castle Hill, etc. were sick of going all the way to Granville for games. They've got 20 clubs within a 15-minute drive of each other even in Saturday morning traffic, and that helps when some families have to go to multiple games.

I don't mind a bus trip for rugby, but its a different story if you're only doing it for 1 Grade versus 3. Becomes a very long day.

Yeah that's the point. I understand that travel has to be different for higher divs but there are people who can't really commit the time bubble necessary even for div 5 or 6, which in other sports would be a very local level. This is just something I noticed for my personal needs and I don't think its the biggest of problems but perhaps the worst for me as an individual.

 

[HeavyB]

I grew up in the western suburbs and used togo into the city 3 times a week during high school but go off.

I grew up in the western suburbs. What a shithole, I avoid going out there like the plague. Happily living in the East.

 

[Bigmozz70]

I grew up in the western suburbs. What a shithole, I avoid going out there like the plague. Happily living in the East.

Certainly wasn't pleasant in a variety of ways. It was when I had just moved back from England as well so I didn't have the shared AFL/NRL culture having been playing the boring football for a number of years.

 

[Pfitzy]

Yeah that's the point. I understand that travel has to be different for higher divs but there are people who can't really commit the time bubble necessary even for div 5 or 6, which in other sports would be a very local level. This is just something I noticed for my personal needs and I don't think its the biggest of problems but perhaps the worst for me as an individual.

I wonder sometimes if this is the reason a few of the Northern Beaches clubs are struggling - the 6th Division comp might as well have been The Northern Beaches Cup some years!

Savers, Dee Why*, Terrey Hills*, Collaroy*, Seaforth*, Wakehurst - that is practically a Division right there and throw in Chatswood and Lane Cove? Means nobody is driving more than 30 minutes for a game.

* But see 4 clubs who are basically gone at this point.

 

[Nath]

I wonder sometimes if this is the reason a few of the Northern Beaches clubs are struggling - the 6th Division comp might as well have been The Northern Beaches Cup some years!

Savers, Dee Why*, Terrey Hills*, Collaroy*, Seaforth*, Wakehurst - that is practically a Division right there and throw in Chatswood and Lane Cove? Means nobody is driving more than 30 minutes for a game.

* But see 4 clubs who are basically gone at this point.

Most of those poor buggers break out in a rash when they have to cross the bridge too.

 

[HeavyB]

I wonder sometimes if this is the reason a few of the Northern Beaches clubs are struggling - the 6th Division comp might as well have been The Northern Beaches Cup some years!

Savers, Dee Why*, Terrey Hills*, Collaroy*, Seaforth*, Wakehurst - that is practically a Division right there and throw in Chatswood and Lane Cove? Means nobody is driving more than 30 minutes for a game.

* But see 4 clubs who are basically gone at this point.

Give it 2 years Newport and Forest will be the only clubs left in the area