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Super 15... but where are our passionates?

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M

Mel_Don

Guest
Rugby's brand equity is diluted by both league, AFL, soccer and cricket with no one attribute being owned by rugby. Bluntly put, consumers are not passionate about rugby. They favour AFL and NRL, which tend to be more tribal. Disconcertingly, even our passionates are turning away. The Super 14 is likely to see a name change to Super 15 with the Melbourne Rebels on board, but realistically union's general popularity and viewing audiences are at a long term low. Did you know that in 2009 attendances at Super 14 matches dropped from 115,317 to 75,393? What is happening to the love of Rugby?
 

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Good question. Difficult to answer. One thing all the Aussie Super teams should consider is that empty seats in their stadiums are a bad thing. They must have a price structure that appeals not just to the hard core supporter.

Big crowds are appealing to broadcasters, advertisers and sponsors. With more people around more merchandise, drinks and snacks will be sold. Getting more kids in will promote the game to the next generation.

Playing a bit of decent rugby wouldn't hurt either.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Where do those stats come from, and what do they relate to? Because it isn't total crowd figures, or average crowd figures.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Personally, I think the Brumbies need to adopt more afternoon matches...

The climate around Canberra stadium is awful during the Super 14 and if the Brumbies aren't tearing it up it's tough to get spectators to drive all the way out to Bruce in awful conditions to watch the games...

However, in regards to the Brumbies there were other factors which affected their crowds this year...

Firstly they didn't play their usual big drawcard teams at home - Tahs, 'Saders etc. It's no surprise that their biggest crowd for the year (which was a decent size considering how they were travelling) was against the Reds...

Also, they haven't played an opening round home game since 2005... that's 5 years without starting the tournament at home! That's poor planning by SANZAR...

This year they played 3 games away and then their first home game was against the Lions in round 4 in the wet after they'd played a couple of average games... hardly going to draw a crowd... and it hurt even more when that game was followed up by other opposition teams that weren't playing well at the time - Sharks, Chiefs, Cheetahs etc.
 
C

chief

Guest
I think its as simple as FTA, and attractive Rugby. FTA isn't too easy though as Fox pays so much for the exclusive rights. Hopefully in 2016, when these TV rights expire Channel 9 can make a bid for them, as there's a strong possibility that 9 may not even get the NRL rights.

Cheap merchandise as well, I payed 150 for my Reds jersey. And for fucks sake, make Penalty Goals worth 1 point to accommodate our low attention span country.
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Personally, I think the Brumbies need to adopt more afternoon matches...

The climate around Canberra stadium is awful during the Super 14 and if the Brumbies aren't tearing it up it's tough to get spectators to drive all the way out to Bruce in awful conditions to watch the games...

However, in regards to the Brumbies there were other factors which affected their crowds this year...

Firstly they didn't play their usual big drawcard teams at home - Tahs, 'Saders etc. It's no surprise that their biggest crowd for the year (which was a decent size considering how they were travelling) was against the Reds...

Also, they haven't played an opening round home game since 2005... that's 5 years without starting the tournament at home! That's poor planning by SANZAR...

This year they played 3 games away and then their first home game was against the Lions in round 4 in the wet after they'd played a couple of average games... hardly going to draw a crowd... and it hurt even more when that game was followed up by other opposition teams that weren't playing well at the time - Sharks, Chiefs, Cheetahs etc.

This is the problem. Bigger games will draw crowds but if you can't get a decent crowd in a game yo know you're going to win you don't have enough fan loyalty.

I agree there is a lack of passion. If I compare the SFS to the festivity of the whole event at UK stadiums, in France and SA there is something missing, even in a big game.

They are trying to make the event more exciting through things like Tah Man (god help us), competitions etc but there is little spark at these games.

Maybe there just aren't enough rabid fans who let their hair down. Maybe they go to league?
 

DPK

Peter Sullivan (51)
I think to get what most of us want, we'd have to dumb down the sport to about... well, we'd have to make it league for a lot of people to watch it.
 

Scarfman

Knitter of the Scarf
Those numbners are average per week, all 4 Aussies combined. They're 2006 to 2009 figures.

Overall crowd numbers at Test matches have fallen from 617,555 in 2006 to 386,287 this year, while attendances at Super 14 matches have dropped from 115,317 to 75,393 in the same period.

I wonder what the 2010 numbers are.

While we're at it - the Wallaby ads are awful.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Rugby's brand equity is diluted by both league, AFL, soccer and cricket with no one attribute being owned by rugby. Bluntly put, consumers are not passionate about rugby. They favour AFL and NRL, which tend to be more tribal. Disconcertingly, even our passionates are turning away. The Super 14 is likely to see a name change to Super 15 with the Melbourne Rebels on board, but realistically union's general popularity and viewing audiences are at a long term low. Did you know that in 2009 attendances at Super 14 matches dropped from 115,317 to 75,393? What is happening to the love of Rugby?

MD, welcome, good to have more posters going to the heart of the matter re our code in Australia. I have been making my own lame attempts at discussing this crucial matter since starting posting to this fine site in June. I have posted - for what it's worth - on the genesis of rugby's post-2003 problems, and have issued my own sort of ten-point plan in an attempt to deal with them, looking forward say 2-4 years.

What you highlight is (sadly) correct, but you must appreciate first that many 'mad passionates, hard core' rugby supporters here in Australia are in a kind of trenchant denial about this problem, and don't really want to talk about it, analyse it, or face it squarely. Rugby has attachments to a kind of 'born to always exist' superiority mist around it that partly emanates from its elite private school roots in Australia (and coming as I did from rugby at Kings in NSW, I know something about this ;-) ). This mist shrouds and magnifies the core problem. Just look at GAGR (for which in general I have a very high regard, btw): I know of no recent main blog essay that examines the obvious, serious problems faced by the code in Australia and then sets forth constructive, gutsy suggestions as to what must be done to fix them. And GAGR is the world's leading rugby blog and fan site for Australian rugby!

Re S14/15 and your comments on same. The core problem is, for me, blindingly clear and not at all unfathomable. Apart from the notable exception in this one year 2010 of the Reds, none of the S14 teams have (a) enough star player dazzlers that pull crowds in to watch them (as league and AFL have) and (b) their brand of rugby is largely dull, not dynamic, fast-paced and pulsing ball-in-hand play leading to exciting wins (c) they don't appoint really competent, world-class coaches that know how to build a rugby play style that excites and pulls crowds and wins and (d) the business and market-development quality of the state RUs' management is second-rate and, in general, below the comparable competencies in league and AFL and, increasingly, soccer too.

Until the above problems are honestly faced and decisively fixed - and the Rebels and S15 new game structure are beacons of light in the dark - the S15 will continue its seeping market share loss and income decline in Australia. The Wallabies are a closely related problem - their slow decline to today's poor state where, incredibly, we have even lost the once great hallmark of Aussie back line genius (all now accompanied by the lamest of excuses-factories vs sacking those responsible and fixing problems in an honest manner), adds hugely to the rugby brand and related $ income problems in Australia.

Again though, I loop back: there's not many core rugby supporters who want to face these realities hard on. The above type of analysis often offends them as 'negative'.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I think to get what most of us want, we'd have to dumb down the sport to about... well, we'd have to make it league for a lot of people to watch it.

Sorry DPK, big myth. Whatever your Tahs' loyalty and passion, you are a smart student of the game and the massive revival of the Reds this year to very respectable crowds and gate income levels @ Suncorp shows precisely what the everyday rugby fan wants to come and see, and why. There was no dumbing down of the sport at Suncorp 2010, quite the opposite, the Reds' play was cleverer, bit in a manner that was highly attractive to watch.

If 'complexity' was rugby's core problem, why is it rapidly building market share in France, for example?
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I'm as passionate a rugby guy as you'd want to meet, even growing up exclusively in the Southern States. Loved the game all my life (even when playing other sports from time to time) and support it through thick and thin. However, there is a lot to what RH is saying. We appear to have drifted away from what made the rugby product so good for 20+ years in this country. The Wallabies are pretty mediocre at present (though there is hope), but it all comes from the sides that feed into that setup. With the Reds playing better footy I think there is perhaps some light on the horizon. For my money, the Australian game is all about ball in hand, fifteen man rugby. That's what pulls the punters in. Even if we don't win (either in S14/15 or tests), the punters can still see something exciting and that makes them want to come back. As I've said previously, it doesn't have to be 80 minutes of razzle dazzle, but creative play from creative players is all I'm asking for.

I am actually looking forward to next season and the arrival of the Rebels with the new structure. It will stoke a few of the local rivalries again and create a bit more interest. I'm hoping the people in Melbourne will embrace their team and I'm actually expecting they will. My experiences with Victorian people has been that they will get out and support things going on their city. Let's hope that the Rebels go OK.
 

Rob42

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
...Tah Man (god help us)...

Don't knock Tah Man. He costs next-to-nothing, except maybe when he arrives by helicopter, and the kids love him. He won't save the Tahs single-handedly, but he's an ornament to the game nonetheless.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Sorry DPK, big myth. Whatever your Tahs' loyalty and passion, you are a smart student of the game and the massive revival of the Reds this year to very respectable crowds and gate income levels @ Suncorp shows precisely what the everyday rugby fan wants to come and see, and why. There was no dumbing down of the sport at Suncorp 2010, quite the opposite, the Reds' play was cleverer, bit in a manner that was highly attractive to watch.

If 'complexity' was rugby's core problem, why is it rapidly building market share in France, for example?

Rugby in France is an interesting case, RedsHappy.

The first stat to keep in mind is that 62,793,432 people live in metropolitan (i.e. mainland) France. This is about three times Australia's population.

But Rugby in France is certainly winning market share within that large market: at the expense of football. This quote is from Time Magazine:

"Rugby may have surged at soccer's expense. Attendance figures for the recently-ended pro rugby regular season show an 11% boost over the previous year, contrasting soccer's nearly 4% slump. Though the average 19,860 fans at Ligue 1 soccer games is still considerably higher than the 13,402 average for rugby's Top 14, rugger is fast closing the gap — over the past six years, soccer stadiums have lost a total of 10% of fans, while rugby's gate has more than doubled. The tables are slowly turning in TV Land too: though the 1.7 million viewers average of soccer matches on pay station Canal Plus far out-guns 700,000 for the Top 14, rugby's offensive has gained ground there, too."

So, French rugby benefits from a larger population base than Australia, but is also increasing in popularity. I wonder if it is progressing towards a 'natural level' that the sport may have already reached in some other places. It would be very interesting to try to pick these numbers apart and try to understand what the different factors are. I think there is a blog post in there.

Some other interesting numbers to consider are the attendances for major matches and matches in large population centres. Returning to the football theme, Stade Français' 34,722 match average this year is better than Paris Saint-Germain's 33,522.

And let's not forget the 94,013 people in Soweto last weekend. Another major population centre.

What strikes me about these numbers is how promising the prognosis is for Melbourne. People say how hard it will be to draw crowds in a new city but these numbers all point to the crowd appeal of rugby. The question is why Aussie crowds are falling now.

I'm with the 'loser' camp. We need to start winning, without winning ugly and ruining the game's inherent appeal to sports fans. Queensland style in. Waratah style out.

It is a personal turn off to me when people speak of the game as 'the product' but there is no need to talk like that. The need to get bums on seats is fundamental. No bucks equals no trophies and no funding for grassroots rugby and the future of the game.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
I would go more if they, allowed season ticket holders to choose their seats - so I could sit under cover where I want, provided better value and cut out the dumb rock music.

Even more if they could get Saturday afternoon games.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
RH, the Tahs are the epitome of the type of play you're talking about. Despite having an excellent back line last season, we saw far too much one-out, uninspired play. When Mitchell, Beale and Turner were let loose, exciting things happened. Why the team doesn't play to those back line strengths more, I don't know.

The new interpretations are helping and I suspect they'll contribute to bigger crowds for the S15 next year. One other step that SANZAR could make is to instruct referees to call scrums much tighter. One reset, then blow it up and give the ball for a tap to one side or the other (unless there's a penalty, of course). Nothing is worse - either at the game or on the box - than seeing the same scrum set and re-set for 5 or 6 minutes. For casual and potential fans, it's worse than boring - it's incomprehensible.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Good stuff Groucho, but rugby is a product though isn't it? It's packaged entertainment for the masses, like all other sport. If it wasn't that way, I doubt any sponsors would be interested. Anyway, it's all semantics. The most important thing is that we see good footy and plenty of it. That's all I want.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
....I am actually looking forward to next season and the arrival of the Rebels with the new structure. It will stoke a few of the local rivalries again and create a bit more interest. I'm hoping the people in Melbourne will embrace their team and I'm actually expecting they will. My experiences with Victorian people has been that they will get out and support things going on their city. Let's hope that the Rebels go OK.

TBH, generally agree re Rebels. Yes, re yr Melbourne points and the hope therefrom. But the thing that really excites me is this: Macqueen in the south, Link in the north, squeeziing the obvious mediocrities we have running the Brumbies and Tahs. That's what's IMO needed - a bloody great clean out of both Tahs' and Brumbies' managements, this all came to the QRU through a hard crisis unfortunately, but the management and coaching changes there have done wonders for the game here in QLD. Just needs to be done elsewhere and fast. Problem is: ACT RU and NSW RU are full of old school rugby-introverts vs hard-nosed sports business professionals who know how to respond to the wants of everyday fans vs self-preservation and rule by clique. And the ARU stands back wringing its hands and counting less and less income to the code.

If the Rebels play a crowd-pulling game style representing the best of our running rugby traditions (and I think they will), and the Reds do similarly again in 2011, these two teams' improving commercial success will show up the two in the middle and so the right pressure will be on for the needed, urgent change there. Here lMO lies hope!

Re the Force. I am horrified they have taken on R Graham. He has been a disaster with the Wallabies as "Skills Coach". The Wallabies' skills have deteriorated under him, and their back line play now resembles that of a grade UK team. They should have looked world-wide for fresh, forward-thinking coaching blood that would pull the Force into the top table. Again, this just shows how the local RUs are neither far-sighted, imaginative, nor properly appreciate how to grow the code.
 
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