So where to from here?

[cyclopath]

So given the inept performance in general last night, where do the Wallabies (and Robbie) go from here? Was it a matter of too many changes (rotation?), poor game plan, poor execution, no ticker or all of the above?
I believe the comparisons to the 61-22 hiding are appropriate, given the lack of any grit shown.
I don't want to get into bunfights like last night about who was / is most crap and who most correctly predicted it, but have some players done their dash?
I would say TPN has had a fair go at hooker, and just cannot get the lineout part done - at Provincial and National level. As I and others have said before, it is baffling a professional player seems so incapable of improving this aspect of play. I believe the hooker has to be good at scrums and lineouts, and any other strengths (2nd fetcher) are a bonus. Should he be "remade" into a flanker? I for one do not think he deserves a spot at the moment.
Waugh just is not good enough to start. I was shouting at the TV last night to get Smith on earlier. Maybe Pocock needs a call, may as well get his career at international level going.
I thought the scrums were steady enough but still flaky, with the big exception the complete capitulation on our own goal line - if it can't fire up then, then God help it. Dunning - back to the pine.
Elsom looks like he's doing stuff, but I can't say whether it's effective. He carries the ball well, but defence less good. Palu seemed to have inherited Lote's old running style, lots of jinking, no forward power.
Giteau was poor and kicked poorly. He of course will stay.
Mortlock ditto - worst game for ages. He'll stay.
Tahu - I still think he WILL be good, but got found out in defensive positioning badly.
Tuqiri - blew a try, didn't do much else.
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - sorry, not a fullback. He is a 13, and we should not get into playing him anywhere just because he's good.
So do we write the game off as a bad nightmare and stick with what we've got, or look to change some cattle? Who would people drop, and who would replace them and why?

 

[liquor box]

Palu seemed to have inherited Lote's old running style, lots of jinking, no forward power.

Tahu - I still think he WILL be good, but got found out in defensive positioning badly.

Tuqiri - blew a try, didn't do much else.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - sorry, not a fullback. He is a 13, and we should not get into playing him anywhere just because he's good.

I think number 8 is a huge issue for us, it has been a long time since we have had an number 8 who is consistently better than he is bad, Palu has his moments of greatness, but they are becoming few and far between- he seems to be playing softer now days, it is almost like he has lost the will to punnish his body to get the job done.

Tahu has skills but will not stay in the picture when Barnes is back (that is another issue!) Tahu would push into outside centre, but I would put Cross there first- he seemed to play well and is good enough to hold a spot

tuquiri- I cant think of good things to say, but at the same time, i cant name a ready replacement that would be any better

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)- will be gone for a long time, he will miss out in the centres to the leaguies.

TPN has to go, no excuses, he has had too many chances, but who do you bring in? Faainga needs to bulk up fast, and he might get a look in as a future prospect

I would love to see Turner come into the team, maybe for Hynes? He adds some electricity to the team.

If I had a blank cheque book, I would bring back Latham straight away. It is hard to have a great back three when they are being directed by novices

Will Rathbone ever be fit again? can he come back and be a force?

 

[Scotty]

Good point RE: Latham, as I said a number of times, it wasn't the time we should have been getting rid of experienced backline players, considering what we lost last year. Some very stupid decisions have been made by the ARU, and Pat Howard, for my part showed nothing in his high performance role before dropping it. Perhaps, he unrealistically took it in the first place. (Cue Noddy coming in to stick up for him.)

Despite Lathams injury, I'm sure Robbie would want to have the likes of him on the EOYT and in the tri-nations next year, while back-up options are developed. And before some of you say 'but maybe he had a hand in the ARU dropping the contract price' - I doubt this was the case, considering he had told Latham he was to be picked in the squad when the Saders played the Reds.

 

[Scotty]

ib,

I agree that Palu doesn't play to a consistent level, and you could say that he punches below his weight, however there isn't much chance of finding a great, go forward no 8 until the 7 blokes in front of him start doing their job, and get him on the front foot.

 

[Pfitzy]

Tahu will benefit from another season at 12 with the Tahs, with Beale and Horne either side of him it will allow him to use his professional experience as a league player to help his leadership and confidence. When all the other regulars started playing like frightened schoolgirls he caught the bug, though he shouldn't have. C'est la vie.

Key thing is not to panic. We've beaten the Boks twice and the ABs once this year, despite the losses being absolute thumpings. The Boks found themselves again by playing to their strengths while we were in cruise control to a degree, and changed our team when we shouldn't have.

As naza said elsewhere: its our backline that really went to bits when you think about it. We kind of expect our forwards to get belted every so often because we know that most of them lack the steel in the top two inches. It was watching numbers 9-15 throw hail mary passes and do stupid kicks that had me shaking the noggin...

 

[Spook]

I think the forwards were absolutely shit house. Backs were just back pedalling all day. We got hammered and Tahu was a massive liability - De Villiers killed him. I still think he will come good but gee I feel dumb for talking him up as a replacement for Barnes. Pocock for Waugh.

 

[Scarfman]

Well, Pocock for Waugh gradually. Both Smith and Waugh spanked his baby arse when they played. I think Crofty might have done him as well.

 

[formeropenside]

Well, Pocock for Waugh gradually. Both Smith and Waugh spanked his baby arse when they played. I think Crofty might have done him as well.

Yep, he did. And also Waugh's as well.

One problem with Australian rugby is the push toward versatile players rather than specialists: a 7 who plays like an 8, a hooker who plays like a 6.5 or 8, a second rower who spends time at 6, or an 8 who thinks hes a back (Hoiles). I wont even mention props who are "good around the park".

Yes, its conveniant when naming a bench, but it creates problems when players can't do their core job.

First you get the core skills right, then you train to keep them at that level, anything more than that is a bonus. I think it will take us a while to get over the "seagulling hooker" player of Kearns and Paul.

It worries me that watching Pocock play he seems to me like an 8 rather than a 7: a linkman rather than a fetcher. Thats fine if he is a future 8, but he is always talked about as a 7. He's a bit light to be an 8 at present, but can beef up I would imagine.

 

[cyclopath]

Tahu will benefit from another season at 12 with the Tahs, with Beale and Horne either side of him it will allow him to use his professional experience as a league player to help his leadership and confidence. When all the other regulars started playing like frightened schoolgirls he caught the bug, though he shouldn't have. C'est la vie.

Key thing is not to panic. We've beaten the Boks twice and the ABs once this year, despite the losses being absolute thumpings. The Boks found themselves again by playing to their strengths while we were in cruise control to a degree, and changed our team when we shouldn't have.

As naza said elsewhere: its our backline that really went to bits when you think about it. We kind of expect our forwards to get belted every so often because we know that most of them lack the steel in the top two inches. It was watching numbers 9-15 throw hail mary passes and do stupid kicks that had me shaking the noggin...

I'm sorry Nick. I know it is customary for just about everyone on here to indulge in their "backs are just a waste of space" routine ad nauseam, but if you really think that only the backs went to pieces you're deluded.
The backs played very, very badly, yes indeed. Can't think of too many positives there, and I think I outlined many negatives elsewhere. kick, pass, tackle - pretty much all of it. The forwards...
Lineouts - no real need to comment is there, 'nuff said.
Scrum - sort of steady, never going forward, crucial tight head loss yielding a try.
Breakdown - notwithstanding the average reffing of this phase allowing all and sundry in from the side, off feet etc... we got smashed just quietly. One out runners getting belted and turning it over; body position with the ball too high too often. No support for the man with the ball.
The whole team was crap. Thinking otherwise is a fool's paradise. The backs could have been brilliant, and we would have got dusted still.

 

[Blue]

Why has Elsom never been tried at 8? Quick enough, good hands and he read the game well.

Would like to see 8. Elsom 7. George 6. Mumm at some stage on EOYT

Mumm has a lot of potential he is a real grafter.

 

[naza]

Tahu will benefit from another season at 12 with the Tahs, with Beale and Horne either side of him it will allow him to use his professional experience as a league player to help his leadership and confidence. When all the other regulars started playing like frightened schoolgirls he caught the bug, though he shouldn't have. C'est la vie.

Key thing is not to panic. We've beaten the Boks twice and the ABs once this year, despite the losses being absolute thumpings. The Boks found themselves again by playing to their strengths while we were in cruise control to a degree, and changed our team when we shouldn't have.

As naza said elsewhere: its our backline that really went to bits when you think about it. We kind of expect our forwards to get belted every so often because we know that most of them lack the steel in the top two inches. It was watching numbers 9-15 throw hail mary passes and do stupid kicks that had me shaking the noggin...

I'm sorry Nick. I know it is customary for just about everyone on here to indulge in their "backs are just a waste of space" routine ad nauseam, but if you really think that only the backs went to pieces you're deluded.
The backs played very, very badly, yes indeed. Can't think of too many positives there, and I think I outlined many negatives elsewhere. kick, pass, tackle - pretty much all of it. The forwards...

The headless chicken routine was kicked off by the backs. They killed us inside of 15 minutes with horrific option taking, woeful execution, and porous defence. Our forwards were rooted, at altitude, trying to keep up with the helter skelter bullshit and their attitude and application plummeted accordingly.

What were our backs thinking ? It was like they were possessed with the spirit of Hanse Cronje.

 

[naza]

Why has Elsom never been tried at 8? Quick enough, good hands and he read the game well.

Would like to see 8. Elsom 7. George 6. Mumm at some stage on EOYT

Mumm has a lot of potential he is a real grafter.

Mumm should be 6 and Elsom left-right-out.

Elsom already loves seagulling on the wing - playing 8 would only encourage him more. I think the reason he isn't playing 8 is he can't get over the advantage line and he can't stop others getting over the advantage line. Which is pretty much what we look for in Australia from our #8. Watching Elsom cart the ball up and get driven backwards is always great entertainment though.

 

[PhucNgo]

Why has Elsom never been tried at 8? Quick enough, good hands and he read the game well.

Would like to see 8. Elsom 7. George 6. Mumm at some stage on EOYT

Mumm has a lot of potential he is a real grafter.

As I've said before on here, the Tahs lost nothing when Mumm filled in for Elsom during S14. He's definately on a growth curve and will battle for the 6 jumper with MMM (IMHO). I'm not sure that I'd take Elsom anywhere at this stage, he's off overseas and there's no guarantee he'll be back.

No ones mentioned Richard Brown so far. I'm tipping he'll get a run in BrisVegas. Palu can turn it on when he wants, but he's a bit of a flat-track bully in that regard. He has a dodgey shoulder and plays to protect it always. I guess you can't blame him, after all he'd be driving trucks otherwise.

As for Waugh, I've got the highest admiration for him, but he's definately not on a growth curve. I made the comment on here some time ago (and was roundly poo pooed by LG) that he'll find it difficult to hold down a spot at the Tah's next year. His time as a Wallaby has passed. Bring on Pocock.

Tahu is a difficult one. His main positives seem to me to be strength-in-the-tackle, i.e. good leg drive and ability to offload, good hands, elusiveness and strong front-on defender (but see below). I don't think he has the out-and-out speed required of a winger. He scored a runaway try against Samoa, in the wet, but looked to me to be still not able to stretch out fully (on his dodgey hamstrings). These all add up to 12 for me, but as we say last Saturday there remains a doubt about his defence. We've all seen him put on some big tackles, but in hindsight these have come from positions in close or where he's blindsided someone. We saw in the first Boks match that DeVilliers slipped around him on a couple of occasions where he was given space to work in. I'm not sure whether this comes from an inability to anticipate the attacker's directional movement, lack of understanding of defensive structure or limited lateral mobility like Nathan Grey, who could only tackle someone if they ran into him. He'll be okay if these can be fixed.

Polota-Nau, nuff said. Look at the replay of him sitting on the bench after he was subbed. He KNEW his time was up. How's Huia Edmonds doing with the Rats?

Flyhalf: With Barnes injurred, we don't have an alternative to Giteau. Longer term I'd be looking to move Gits back to 12 or the bench - his passing was woeful on Saturday.

Mortlock is definately on his last legs (shoulders, head, ankles - now there's someone who's put their body on the line) and as has been said by others Cross is looking the goods.

I haven't been able to watch a replay of last Saturday just yet. Its all a bit raw. It was my impression tho that the forwards were the only thing holding it together up until the half-hour mark, but their inability to win the ball from lineouts and the backs not making the advantage line ultimately took their toll against a rampaging Boks 8 and the altitude factor.

 

[naza]

Outstanding post PhucNgo. I most like it cause you agree with me ! :thumb
But I'll pretend you didn't mention the name Huia Edmonds..

I'd prefer AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) inherit his natural 13 spot from Mortlock than Cross but outside is not the worrying spot at present.

 

[Rugby Rat]

Pfffttt...

Won't say I told you so.

Lets go back a few weeks as to my comments on why we were going to cop a hiding.

 

[Sardyntjie]

So where to from here?


go on and win the Tri-nations............quite simple

 

[Rugby Rat]

So where to from here?


go on and win the Tri-nations............quite simple

Possibly just doing enough to get the silverware...

 

[barbarian]

I wouldn't change our 15 too much coming into Brissie. My opinion of Saturday is everyone had a shocker, but our 3N prospects would be best served by putting it all behind us and moving on- we know who our best XV is (they showed it in Perth, Sydney and Durban) and we should stick to it. I would play:

1. Robinson
2. Moore
3. Baxter
4. Horwill
5. Sharpe (as much as it hurts me to say it)
6. Elsom
7. Smith
8. Palu
9. Cordingley
10. Gits
11. Lote
12. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
13. Mortlock
14. Hynes
15. Mitchell

My only real change has been at 12/15- put Tahu on the bench but I wouldn't feel great about him starting in the biggest test of the year. I would also like to see Mitchell get a start, as he was a breath of fresh air on Saturday.

But other than that and a few other minor changes (Baxter for Dunning, Sharpe for 3M) we should stick to our guns and hope Saturday was just a horrible one-off.

 

[Ash]

Surprised there hasn't been more mentioned of the aimless kick, chase and hope approach from the Wallabies, with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) perhaps the worst culprit - well, not really - if he had chased half his kicks he would've been the worst culprit.

There was no kicking to the corners, there were few attempted counter attacks. Whenever Australia got the ball it off a kick 75% of the time it was a high kick that was aimed to land just outside the 22. And we were justly punished for it. We've had the same tactic in all of our test matches, and it's been successful a few times, and found out a few times. I hope there's a plan B, because plan A sorta sucks. Midfield kicks off phase play were similarly silly. More kicking to the corners, please. One wonders why, on the high veldt, this tactic was employed, as the result was always a booming kick back downfield.

Possesion is a big problem and I struggle to think of the Wallabies being effective with it, or even when they had any phase ball mid field. Too much kicking, a fear of running the ball back and a lineout worse than 5th grade subbies were all low points.

Ultimately, the game plan for this test was just wrong and lacking, and made worse by a bad lineout. We all rate Deans as a coach, but that will start to change if he can't find a new tactic outside of landing bombs 1m outside the 22.

Please, no no no to Lachie Turner, and don't mention him again this year. He was poor for the Tahs in over half his games this year, despite being good in the few remaining ones. And he was so woeful and out of his depth in his one Wallaby performance. He has the capacity to be at test level, but he's not ready yet.

Finally, I think that we will struggle against the All Blacks without Barnes as the Wallabies lack another ball player other than Gits. A combination of a Cross / Mortlock / AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) might work with a full back with some ball playing abilities, but other than SNK, who is not up to this level, Latham was the closest to another ball player, and he's gone.

 

[disco]

Let's not forget that we smashed the Boks 49-0 in brisbane 2006 & nearly every single Springbok that night was part of the RWC 2007.

There is no need to hit the panic button, I'm as depressed about the result as any other Aussie but shit happens.

I'm not going to be to harsh on TPN as Moore really wasn't much better when he came on & if people are fed up with Palu then move TPN to number 8 as he is brilliant around the paddock.