suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
That hit is just wrong. Shoulder charge, aimed at the head. Should have been red card and 10 week ban. But we are talking League.
Shoulder Charges and Brain Injury
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That hit is just wrong. Shoulder charge, aimed at the head. Should have been red card and 10 week ban. But we are talking League.
sonny crockett
Allen Oxlade (6)
Remembering of course shoulder charges are legal in rugby league, and for mine they present as many attacking opportunities as they shut down, more often than not the player/ball is not stopped an the hole that is created can be exploited.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
And the above is an example of why they should not be legal. I know I am on the cautious side of contact with the head, but that is just ....... sickening.
One of the best things that I have seen regarding blows to the head was actually a Mythbusters episode. If you watch it you can see how the brain 'sloshes' around inside the head.
http://dsc.discovery.com/show-news/...e-worse-than-getting-hit-with-a-full-one.html
There is a huge amount of research which has come out of the NFL in recent years regarding the long term damage of head clashes and concussions.
Basically the NFL is ahead of the curve in terms of dealing with it because their sport has been professional for far longer and they've had to face the problem of having people aged 50+ dying prematurely from their earlier brain injuries.
Basically the NFL is ahead of the curve in terms of dealing with it because their sport has been professional for far longer and they've had to face the problem of having people aged 50+ dying prematurely from their earlier brain injuries.
sonny crockett
Allen Oxlade (6)
I am sure that rugby league will continue to make it's own decisions. Warea Hargreaves chose to run directly at the contact here, no shift in any direction, I choose to look at things in different ways to most. You think the brain doesn't slide around the head in boxing, in any other heavy contact situation, when two 900kg packs power hit into each other. Bit unfair to be throwing the whole "you will damage your brain" argument at shoulder charges that in this case, and that video has been on youtube for a long time, the player has decided to confront front on and full on.
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
You think the brain doesn't slide around the head in boxing - Ahhh, I know it slides around in boxing, and I can't watch boxing without wretching either. And yes if I had my way punches to the head in boxing would not be allowed either. But, if you go into the boxing ring you know what the rules are and know that conact is most likely to be made with your head. If you go onto the footy field, you have the right to expect NOT to be shoulder charged in the head.
Yes I know that the brain moves around in other contact situations, including some of the big hits in Union so they are not entirely inocent. I got really pissed with some of the footage of players last year being knock senseless, vomiting, (BB, TPN & WG to name a few) and yet remaining on the field. This year I have had words to say about people thinking that one of the reds players was 'milking' a situation when they were slow off the ground and you could clearly see the 'whip-lash' effect the hit had and therefore the concusion that could be, and was, caused. Good legal hits are different from hits that target the head with the intent to cause maximum damage.
To the 900kg pack power hitting. Actually you would be surprised at how little movement there is in the head and neck of the packs when they engage in the scrum. Why - because the contact is controlled and they are expecting it and therefore are braced for the impact. That of course does not mean that it can't all turn to shit, but it is less likely in a scrum then in a shoulder charge situation. The illegal play of hinging, borrowing in, early engage and intentially collapsing are more likely to cause problems and these will be neck injuries because of the mechanics that are at play.
And just because a player decides to take the contact does not mean that they have loss the right to have their head and brain protected by the laws of the game. This clip shows that the action of the tackler was aimed upwards and at the head. THIS SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED. Same as elbows, forearms, knees, and feet to the head, neck and throat. I also found the reaction of the Tigers players sickening. I did not see one of them check to see if Waerea-Hargreaves was alright, but I may have had my eyes closed. It doesn't matter wheater he is the biggest merkin in the world, he does not deserve that. The only good thing was that he was taken immediately from the field. Having said that, it would be interesting to know what the tape under his chin was covering up. Stiches from a previous hit? In which case he should not have been there.
One of the reasons that I started to closely watch all codes of football was to study mechanism of injury. From this I got drawn into rugby union because it was percieved as the most dangerous, but didn't show the high numbers of injuries that were 'assumed'. Now I will tell you that I do not know everthing and never claim to, but there are some things that just should not be allowed, and intential contact with anything above the shoulders, except in the managed environment such as a scrum, should not be on. At all. The risks are to great. Just ask those that are caring for or treating head injury victims.
End rant. Just one of my soap boxes I am afraid.
sonny crockett
Allen Oxlade (6)
On the 900 kg poer hits, have a look at 1. A Fench study completed recently on what happens in there, and my back Xrays, I have packed in thousands of these things and you can't know what goes on in there. If you miss the hit, just by a tad, your head bounces of the shoulder of the opposition, compressing your spine somewhat painfully. There are numerous other forces in there that you can't understand until you are in there, but all in all they are a great deal of fun, but delvier a great deal of wear and tear to some critical body components.
Hinging, not even in the law book, basically collapsing, and I still wait for someone that understand a little physics to tell me why, ye tit seems so obvious. Boring in, and again, at times I laugh when a loose head gets penalized because it is awfully hard for him to stay straight with one shoulder in the scrum, and all the TH has to do is subtly shift angle and all of a sudden the LH is the one being detected going in. There is no thought on a few issues these days come scrum time, just programmed robots going about what they have been told to do, in boots these days often ill equipped for what teyh are doing, and at times on surfaces ill equipped for the actions they are performing.
JWH chose to take the contact because it was going to be a man vs man thing, his choice, and he had plenty of them. You hit high to stop the ball, which is as important as stopping the man. As I say, rugby league administration will take care of it's own laws and make changes as necessary. JWH got another big shor off on a Pink Panter yesterday.
Junior Rugby League, no shuolder charges. There is medical advice being given to the ARL/NRL, or has been given to them recently on the dangers and damages being done, the doctor heading up the study was interviewed late last year.
Hinging, not even in the law book, basically collapsing, and I still wait for someone that understand a little physics to tell me why, ye tit seems so obvious. Boring in, and again, at times I laugh when a loose head gets penalized because it is awfully hard for him to stay straight with one shoulder in the scrum, and all the TH has to do is subtly shift angle and all of a sudden the LH is the one being detected going in. There is no thought on a few issues these days come scrum time, just programmed robots going about what they have been told to do, in boots these days often ill equipped for what teyh are doing, and at times on surfaces ill equipped for the actions they are performing.
JWH chose to take the contact because it was going to be a man vs man thing, his choice, and he had plenty of them. You hit high to stop the ball, which is as important as stopping the man. As I say, rugby league administration will take care of it's own laws and make changes as necessary. JWH got another big shor off on a Pink Panter yesterday.
Junior Rugby League, no shuolder charges. There is medical advice being given to the ARL/NRL, or has been given to them recently on the dangers and damages being done, the doctor heading up the study was interviewed late last year.
The most obvious thing about why rugby league and AFL should get rid of shoulder charges is that a slightly miss-timed shoulder charge very easily ends up in a serious shoulder injury and a possible reconstruction.
In my opinion rugby union is often too harsh on shoulder charges in that legitimate tackles are being penalised for having no arms in the tackle. Clearly everyone is taught that you should lead with the shoulder in a tackle. There are times when players hit with the shoulder first and the timing is so good or the tackled player is off balance and they go down before the arms can become involved in the tackle.
It happened again on Friday night in the Crusaders vs Chiefs game. I think Israel Dagg was penalised for no arms in the tackle when realistically he never had a chance to get them there. The player was already being tackled when Dagg came in to finish the tackle and he dropped very quickly after Dagg made contact. In my opinion there was nothing wrong with the tackle and it shouldn't have been penalised.
There was the Cliffy Palu hit a couple of years ago on Rob Kearney. Again, it was penalised and shouldn't have been. Palu's hit was just massive and the timing impeccable. You can see Palu clutch at the air because Kearney has gone down too fast for Palu to use his arms.
I think the biggest difference between a legitimate tackle and a shoulder charge is the angle of the player. If you hit with the top of the shoulder (i.e. parallel with the collar bone) then it is a text book tackle. If you hit with the outside of the shoulder (parallel with the upper arm) then it is a shoulder charge.
In my opinion rugby union is often too harsh on shoulder charges in that legitimate tackles are being penalised for having no arms in the tackle. Clearly everyone is taught that you should lead with the shoulder in a tackle. There are times when players hit with the shoulder first and the timing is so good or the tackled player is off balance and they go down before the arms can become involved in the tackle.
It happened again on Friday night in the Crusaders vs Chiefs game. I think Israel Dagg was penalised for no arms in the tackle when realistically he never had a chance to get them there. The player was already being tackled when Dagg came in to finish the tackle and he dropped very quickly after Dagg made contact. In my opinion there was nothing wrong with the tackle and it shouldn't have been penalised.
There was the Cliffy Palu hit a couple of years ago on Rob Kearney. Again, it was penalised and shouldn't have been. Palu's hit was just massive and the timing impeccable. You can see Palu clutch at the air because Kearney has gone down too fast for Palu to use his arms.
I think the biggest difference between a legitimate tackle and a shoulder charge is the angle of the player. If you hit with the top of the shoulder (i.e. parallel with the collar bone) then it is a text book tackle. If you hit with the outside of the shoulder (parallel with the upper arm) then it is a shoulder charge.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Thats the nature of their game - theyre not interested in subtlety.
I have a feeling that, just as with the attacking player in the air trying to catch the ball, league is contemplating changing this tackle rule.
Its not just the straight out contact damage the fact is if you dont use your arms you can hit so much harder - sure its a game of atttrition but attrition does not mean wiping a bloke out in 1 tackle it should take 79 minutes.
Bowside
Peter Johnson (47)
I think the problem can be contained by firstly banning the shoulder charge but also by reducing interchanges/having rugby style substitutions. The latter would necessitate a higher level of fitness meaning the players would on the whole be lighter and more fatigued - leading to less intense collisions. I would ban shoulder pads as well so players can 'feel' the hit and don't go as hard. Would make the game more exciting as well and I might actually watch more that 4 games a year.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
is that 4 when you add up all the minutes or 4 full games: 'cos I'm only able to do the former - I just cant watch a league game from beginning to end
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
Even adding up all the minutes you beat me. I have knocked back so many corporate tickets to the State of Origin that I don't get asked any more.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
so thats not you in that famous clip at suncorp listening to Darren Lockyer....
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
Ahh No. On a number of frounts :
1) Please credit me with some decorum.
2) Have been to 2 league games (not counting school) in my life and spent one of those reading a book for half the time. (Suncorp staff member had a good chuckle when he realised that it was John Eales's bio.)
3) I would not have been in the cheap seats.
4) Please credit me with some dignity.
Does that answer you question?
terry j
Ron Walden (29)
And what's worse is the hootin and a hollerin (cheering basically) from the commentators.
And hardly skillful.
(oh, and who is frank nicholson? I don't get that bit)
W
Waylon
Guest
I loved it
Quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with shoulder charges
Ut's a body contact sport
Even AFL has them. NRL. NFL
Rugby is poorer for it
White boys don't like it. So what?
Bring back the hurt
Quite frankly, there is nothing wrong with shoulder charges
Ut's a body contact sport
Even AFL has them. NRL. NFL
Rugby is poorer for it
White boys don't like it. So what?
Bring back the hurt
p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
The name under you avitar is a former Wallaby captain. The captain you are relates to the number of points you are awarded for the number of posts you make.
terry j
Ron Walden (29)
suckerforred
Chilla Wilson (44)
As I has said before a hard legal hit I have no problem with. There were a few over the weekend that sat players on their arse that were just great. My problem with this incident is that the shouler was aimed at the head of the player
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