Scotland v Wallabies at Murrayfield 12.40am Mon 25 Nov

[Braveheart81]

Have to disagree with your takes on the lineout Wilson. Skelton had a massive detrimental affect for us. The Scots just looked where he was standing in the lineout and threw it there as they knew they would be uncontested. On our own throw, they made sure they had their best jumpers competing with LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) and Wilson (which to be fair wasn't hard for them - Wilson definitely is not a premier lineout jumper) because they knew we were not going to Skelton. The result was that for the whole time Skelton was on the field, the Scots had clean ball from their lineouts and we had rubbish if we even won possession. That situation led to the second part of the first half and well into the second half, we were starved of possession. That was where the game was won and lost.

Incidentally, after Frost replaced Skelton, we actually won a couple of their lineout throws.

Otherwise, Skelton was little more than a penalty magnet. From my recollection, he gave away three very early penalties in the first half which gifted territory, possession and flow of the game to the Scots. And for all of his reputation at the maul, we lost possession from our rolling maul on at least two occasions while Skelton was on the field. Cummins made a mess of our mauls while Big Willy never had an impact.

It's kind of incredible that despite how detrimental Skelton was to our performance, the score was 10-6 when he left the field after 49 minutes and we then lost the last 31 minutes 17-7 without him.

I guess we let our guard down because of how much better we looked once Skelton was replaced.

 

[stillmissit]

What do you reckon the combined experience of lineout calling at professional rugby level is amongst those three (add in skelton too!)?

No Idea, but I know that I would have changed it up. They have been playing with Schmidt since day dot apart from Skelton who doesn't jump. Anyone with half a brain could remember the standard calls and understand who was to support who. I assume Wilson was the LO caller.

 

[TSR]

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that they wanted to see how both the defensive and attacking mauls went with Skelton, Valetini and Wilson in the lineup. Our maul defense would have probably been really strong but that is precisely why Scotland decided not to go to the maul that often on their ball. With those three in the team the Boks are about the only team that would still fancy their maul as a primary attacking weapon. Then with only one front line jumper we did not get enough clean ball on our lineout to use the maul.
If Skelton is in we need a second primary jumper in the back row not just a secondary support jumper like Wilson. Wilson is fantastic as a third jumper in the lineout and has given us really good service in the earlier tests. If you only have one primary jumper in the side it is far too easy for the opposition to deny you clean possession at your lineout.

I dunno. I recall plenty of clean ball, particularly early, but I can’t remember any well formed driving mauls. Several times we tried and our set up was all over the place and the Scot either islotated the ball carrier or took the ball. As the game went on the Scot’s had more success contesting - although it seemed to me a couple of times the throw missed its mark.

The Scots tried to drive several mauls. We defended them okay - I can’t remember them making much progress, but I can’t remember any from lineouts where we locked them up and forced the turnover. We did get lock up two mauls but they were both in general play.

 

[Joe Blow]

That's a bit harsh given he plays very little 13.

Flook should have been on the bench to cover 13

 

[Joe Blow]

Eh, grand slam is over, let him rest. Throw in Flook.

Nah. A decent performance against the Irish will do wonders for our confidence. Let him rest after that. Assuming it is just bruising.

 

[Joe Blow]

Care to expand? He even took a lineout last match. Yeah I guess we can't have all our carry oriented players in one starting line up but I think it'd be crazy not to include him in the squad.

It seemed to work alright when Fez and Frost were humming in the lineout, but it went to crap yesterday. Have to figure that one out. Maybe Cale at 6 or on the bench.

 

[TSR]

It's kind of incredible that despite how detrimental Skelton was to our performance, the score was 10-6 when he left the field after 49 minutes and we then lost the last 31 minutes 17-7 without him.

I guess we let our guard down because of how much better we looked once Skelton was replaced.

BR makes some reasonable points thought. I get what you are saying but I think it’s just as misleading to look at the score/timing of Skelton’s departure in a vacuum like that as it is to assign disproportionate blame to him for our loss.

He did a lot of good things but IMO the Scot’s set up their victory in the first half and we were really just hanging in there at times.

I was one who wanted to see Wilson, Skelton & Valetini on the field at once and I feel, to an extent, they weren’t given the best chance to make it work with the issues in the lead up to the game and the late withdrawals of Faessler and Williams. But you’d have to say it came up short despite all 3 players doing some really good things individually.

 

[dru]

It's kind of incredible that despite how detrimental Skelton was to our performance, the score was 10-6 when he left the field after 49 minutes and we then lost the last 31 minutes 17-7 without him.

I guess we let our guard down because of how much better we looked once Skelton was replaced.

We should have converted opportunity on at least a couple of ocassions in that first 30 min. BR discussion was not simply Skelton, but what impact that has leaving us without a reconised second primary jumper. I'd suggest that unexpected injuries impacted lineout as selected. Roughly as Skelton came off, Pollard came on, our third choice line out thrower?

The issue is not simply Skelton, but his lack of availability for training let alone the the full tour. In theory what we lose comes with gains - crossing the advantage line (bugger all of that today) and maul destruction (largely avoided by the Scots). You'd expect some more force in the scrum on TH side as well but there was more happening there than simply Skelton.

My response is not at all "anti-Skelton" but a recognition that the Scots found some downsides and the upsides were pretty quiet. In that game.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Nah. A decent performance against the Irish will do wonders for our confidence. Let him rest after that. Assuming it is just bruising.

Throw in the best line up we have and go for the win
Silly kerevi gone for two weeks for that hit.
Hope JS ok we’re probably a little light in the mids

 

[Tomthumb]

Seems crazy to blame the failure of an 8 man operation on one bloke. Its an obvious weakness of his but its not his fault we didn't set up the team to deal with it.

Far as I could tell Schmidt was experimenting to see if it would work with Wilson, Valetini and Skelton - it didn't.

This is a problem though. Playing Skelton means rearranging your whole forward pack to suit him.

 

[drewprint]

Just watched the game then. Some quick thoughts:

We got sucked into the Scotland niggle. Lost our cool, and they benefited.
Our in field kicking game was a big let down. In that first half we should have put on some tries with our dominance, we dink kicked it away, along with some poor line kicking too.
No one really played poorly exactly, but it was just a lack of composure at many key moments.

A winnable game that is frustrating to lose, but consider: the week from hell, huge training challenges due to the weather (Scotland had their indoor field they could use), no captains run due to bus issues (what a stitch up that is), not one but two last minute injury illness replacements, players recuperating (Tupou et al), players rested (McReight) along with the Sua'ali'i injury who was looking great out there, against a close to full strength Scotland team. I‘ve seen some commentary from Scotland fans saying the score line flattered Australia. I disagree, I think it flattered them and with a full strength team and a smooth week of prep we roll them.

Bring on Ireland.

 

[molman]

Following on from 10.9

A player who is offside at a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout remains offside, even after the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended.

10.10.c - An opposition player kicks the ball.

So as soon as the ball is kicked by McDermott it put Tuipulotu onside.

If he'd just hurled a pass out in that direction towards Kellaway we would have surely scored or got a penalty try and yellow card for Tuipulotu preventing the try. Tuipulotu was massively offside and Wright was coming through in support.

Yes, understand the law regarding the kick putting him onside. Just curious at the scenario for 10.11 which comes into effect when you are put onside. What is this accounting for then?

Are you retiring with undue delay if you are aware of a kick across the field.

And yes. It was a poor decision by McDermott that he no doubt will cringe at on review.

 

[Derpus]

This is a problem though. Playing Skelton means rearranging your whole forward pack to suit him.

Has always been the deal with playing him.

 

[dru]

Has always been the deal with playing him.

Part of it. He's good enough that other things being equal we would be wise to simply deal with it. But he has chosenFrench rugby, he's not available for generic training, and he is not even available for something as basic as an EOYT in Europe.

Q: What (the fuck) do you do with that?
A: If he is good enough you eat shit.

On this EOYT, has he been good enough? Not by a long shot in my thinking.

We should, imho, lock down on the available players and how we get the greatest strength there.

 

[Rhino_rugby]

Just watched the game then. Some quick thoughts:

We got sucked into the Scotland niggle. Lost our cool, and they benefited.
Our in field kicking game was a big let down. In that first half we should have put on some tries with our dominance, we dink kicked it away, along with some poor line kicking too.
No one really played poorly exactly, but it was just a lack of composure at many key moments.

A winnable game that is frustrating to lose, but consider: the week from hell, huge training challenges due to the weather (Scotland had their indoor field they could use), no captains run due to bus issues (what a stitch up that is), not one but two last minute injury illness replacements, players recuperating (Tupou et al), players rested (McReight) along with the Sua'ali'i injury who was looking great out there, against a close to full strength Scotland team. I‘ve seen some commentary from Scotland fans saying the score line flattered Australia. I disagree, I think it flattered them and with a full strength team and a smooth week of prep we roll them.

Bring on Ireland.

Fair analysis! Frustrating given how winnable it felt. The lack of composure and poor kicking really hurt us in crucial moments. Considering all the disruptions of a chaotic prep week and key players out, it’s unsurprising we fell short.
I agree the scoreline didn’t reflect the full story. A smoother lead-up and full-strength squad would’ve made a big difference.
Ireland will be a huge test fingers are crossed for a stronger showing!

 

[Rhino_rugby]

Are we all allowed to run sock puppets these days

No

 

[upthereds#!]

1. Bell 2. Faessler 3. Tupou
4. Williams 5. Frost
6. Valetini 8. Wilson 7. Mcreight
9. Gordon 10. Lolesio 11. Potter 12. Ikitau 13. JAS 14. Kellaway 15. Wright
16. BPA 17. Slipper 18. Ala'alatoa 19. LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) 20. Gleeson 21. Mcdermott 22. Donaldson 23. Jorgensen

I reckon they'll go back to close as possible to G1 team.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Yes, understand the law regarding the kick putting him onside. Just curious at the scenario for 10.11 which comes into effect when you are put onside. What is this accounting for then?

Are you retiring with undue delay if you are aware of a kick across the field.

And yes. It was a poor decision by McDermott that he no doubt will cringe at on review.

10.11 is for a situation where a player loiters offside. No ref in the world is going to penalised Tuipolutu there when he is running towards the offside line, and away from the ball.

Eg offside player stands in the backline and waits for someone to run 5m before tackling them.

 

[stillmissit]

BR makes some reasonable points thought. I get what you are saying but I think it’s just as misleading to look at the score/timing of Skelton’s departure in a vacuum like that as it is to assign disproportionate blame to him for our loss.

He did a lot of good things but IMO the Scot’s set up their victory in the first half and we were really just hanging in there at times.

I was one who wanted to see Wilson, Skelton & Valetini on the field at once and I feel, to an extent, they weren’t given the best chance to make it work with the issues in the lead up to the game and the late withdrawals of Faessler and Williams. But you’d have to say it came up short despite all 3 players doing some really good things individually.

TSR, When the pack is not supporting the runner at speed and give the Scots 1 or 2 seconds to get into the breakdown before we arrive then you are asking for trouble. We had 3-4 breakdowns where nobody thought to step into the halfback role and they counter rucked us a couple of times. The pack were slow and out of touch, the Scots threw a lot into the breakdown whilst we stayed out a lot. Combine that with our poor defensive structure and their rush defence and we were bound to lose. I had us gone after 10-15 mins, the writing was on the wall.

 

[Tomthumb]

Has always been the deal with playing him.

Which is ok if he is always available but when he's only around to be picked sometimes it means we either have to drop the Captain or the John Eales medalist which is certainly sub optimal