S14 re-format

[RugbyReg]

So SANZAR are meeting next week in Sydney apparently.

Restructure of the comps is high on the agenda (a 4th round of the Tri-Nations anyone?).

To me, it seems, that we're gonna get a 5th team.

It scares me a little, depth-wise. But at the same time excites me about the potential. Obviously imports are allowed, but we will need to spend the money to bring back the likes of Blake, Tomeki, Heenan, Berry, Hilgendorf. Perhaps even Manny Edmonds, Peter Hewat and Andrew Brown. Hell we may even need to snag a few of our jnrs back from league. Setu and the Manly reserve backrower (Cuthebertson???) and JWH. Karmichael Hunt even.

Has Tom Court been capped by Ireland A yet?

At the same time, I think O'Connor and the 7s program needs to be now focusing on this young breed of stars (the Aussie schoolboys of the last few years) rather than journeymen like Andrew Walker and Shaun MacKay (Brumby contract noted).

The other question is, is Melbourne a lay down misere as the location? Should Gosford be considered above it? I don't think the Gold Coast should. I don't think SE QLD can support it commercially.

 

[RugbyReg]

These are (from my records) the Aussie guys coming off contract next year:

REDS:
Ben Daley
Berrick Barnes
Digby Ione
Greg Holmes
Hugh McMeniman
James Horwill
Leroy Houston
Sean Hardman

WARATAHS:
Beau Robinson
Ben Batger
Brett Sheehan
Daniel Halangahu
Dean Mumm
Kurtley Beale
Luke Burgess
Matt Dunning
Phil Waugh
Sam Norton-Knight
Sekope Kepu
Tatafu Nau

BRUMBIES:
Ben Alexander
Clyde Rathbone
Francis Fainifo
George Smith
Huia Edmonds
John Ulugia
Josh Holmes
Mark Chisolm
Mitchell Chapman
Nick Henderson
Patrick Phibbs
Peter Betham
Peter Kimlin
Shaun Mackay
Stephen Moore
Tryone Smith

FORCE:
Drew Mitchell
Gareth Hardy
James O'Connor
Josh Valentine
Junior Pelesasa
Justin Turner
Matt Giteau
Matt Hodgson
Nick Cummins
Pat O'Connor
Richard Brown
Tamaiti Horua
Tom Hockings

But lets just help there are no more 'rapings' ala Force on Reds

 

[whocares]

i like the 10 nations proposal where we scrap the pointless tours and and have Arg, Aus, NZ, SA, Eng, Wal, Ire, Sco, Fra and Ita all playing each other.
points from the 6 nations and some from the tri nations would be counted
and instead of development tours going everywhere we play the other nations in a proper comp.

i know this isnt strickly SANZAR but it would be good to mention

 

[Scarfman]

It would be stupid for the ARU to create a Melbourne team out of thin air. You would want to see a Melbourne-based consortium trying to drive the process. Maybe Central Coast is a better option - always seems to be a few blokes there trying to get sporting teams.

 

[whocares]

It would be stupid for the ARU to create a Melbourne team out of thin air. You would want to see a Melbourne-based consortium trying to drive the process. Maybe Central Coast is a better option - always seems to be a few blokes there trying to get sporting teams.

Thats when the problems start.
as soon as you put in a central coast team it no longer becomes the NSW waratahs.
then you have a sydney team and a central coast team and suddenly western NSW gets angry and complains.

The ARC showed that there was some promise in Melbourne

 

[Lee Grant]

There's no way we could be competitive with 5 teams in Super rugby but does that matter?

We have lost a number of players overseas. One player would have gone overseas for a reason different to another player, or he may have had several reasons for going, but common to many players, somewhere in their decision making, would be the fact that they could not hold down a starting spot in their Super12 or Super14 team.

The likely names on such a list would be too many to mention.

If a new Super team was started up in Oz in, let's say, Melbourne, we could get a few guys back, with enough lead time, but the more important thing would be that it would stop guys going in the first place. The positive effect of this would not be felt for a few years but it would eventually happen.

There would be a tough transition for the Melbourne outfit but if they were to start up in 2011 then the 4 existing teams should be funded to increase their professional squad base in 2010. Every Super outfit has professional Academy players but the funding would enable them to increase the number of them.

The 4 S14 teams would use all their expanded number of pros, except those needed to play in a Super14 match, to form a totally professional A side to play in an APC type tournament with home and away matches against the other 3 A sides. It will be a stretch when S14 teams are touring but the existing A sides have amateur reserves now and they are happy to get the chance.

With a final it would run for 13 weeks and run concurrently with the S14 competition. Whenever possible it would be a curtain raiser to a S14 game. The ground is already rented.

During this tournament the gurus of the Melbourne team could make up a wish list of the best players they have spotted. The same procedure as when the Force had to man their squad would proceed but the ARU could give each Oz player a modest top up sweetener to go to Melbourne for 2 years.

Also, Melbourne should be enabled to get private funding to hire more overseas players than the other teams can have.


The above is complete drivel, and its only merit is to indicate that there are lots of ideas about how to get a 5th franchise up and running without selling the family jewels.

Having a 5th team would inevitably dilute the potency of the 4 present teams whatever happens, but having it would make the failure of the ARC less harmful.

About 28 Australian extra professional players would get on the park every year and there would be more jobs for Aussie coaches.

PS - I think that Melbourne is the best bet. There are several international companies who have their HQs in Melbourne who would be interested in sponsoring an international game - or so said the proposal put forward by the Victorians when they were tendering for the 4th franchise.

 

[RugbyReg]

Its just so soon. 2010 means a decision to go with an extra Aussie team pretty much next week. Then the bid process through the ARU (with Vic, Central Coast, West Sydney and maybe NQ to be considered). A decision made there early in the new year. A coach appointed (McKenzie if Melbourne) and then the recruiting to begin, let alone establishing the admin side and commercial support. It will all happen very quickly.

TV market is very important here. GC or Vic front runners there.

 

[Gagger]

You go to Melbourne and you get:

• Sponsorship money (corps as mentioned by Lee)
• New geography for punters
• Direct competition against the 2 other big codes (gAFL and Chavball) rather than league on its own.

Sounds a no-brainer for JO'N unless the Melbourne Storm commercial story thusfar contradicts (I don't follow League - anyone?)

Question is just when. A couple more years for the current young crop (see Reds and Brumbies) to measure up would make it a lot easier to swallow talent-wise.

 

[Scarfman]

Yeah, plus Melbourne have a pretty decent club competition.

But I was suggesting that the Melbourne people are probably still pissed off about the Force. It sounds like it will be created from above, rather from below, which would worry me.

 

[whocares]

Yeah, plus Melbourne have a pretty decent club competition.

But I was suggesting that the Melbourne people are probably still pissed off about the Force. It sounds like it will be created from above, rather from below, which would worry me.

Yeh there are quite a few good players from Melbourne playing for the other teams. But i guess it would be good for a couple of them to go down and raise the profile of Melbourne rugby. I think Elsom is originally from Melbourne so if he decides to come back in 2010 then he could jump o board. Maybe even their first captain.

 

[Scotty]

The 4 S14 teams would use all their expanded number of pros, except those needed to play in a Super14 match, to form a totally professional A side to play in an APC type tournament with home and away matches against the other 3 A sides. It will be a stretch when S14 teams are touring but the existing A sides have amateur reserves now and they are happy to get the chance.

With a final it would run for 13 weeks and run concurrently with the S14 competition. Whenever possible it would be a curtain raiser to a S14 game. The ground is already rented.

I like the A's team idea, but I think the maths is a bit out - 5 teams playing each other twice with a single final would run for 9 weeks, 10 if you throw in a bye. If the S14 expands to S15, then we are talking 14 normal games plus 4 additional 'derbies' and 3 weeks of finals - around 22 weeks with a bye.

So the A format would only run half the S15 season. It might be an idea to try and team up with the kiwis to have a 10 team or more comp. Of course this all depends on having money available to fund this. It is likely that the first expansion will be for the 5th team, and hopefully after 2-3 years of more successful returns, and rugby increasing its share of the market then the A's concept could be launched (or even under 20s).

 

[RugbyReg]

There's no way we could be competitive with 5 teams in Super rugby but does that matter?

We have lost a number of players overseas. One player would have gone overseas for a reason different to another player, or he may have had several reasons for going, but common to many players, somewhere in their decision making, would be the fact that they could not hold down a starting spot in their Super12 or Super14 team.

The likely names on such a list would be too many to mention.

If a new Super team was started up in Oz in, let's say, Melbourne, we could get a few guys back, with enough lead time, but the more important thing would be that it would stop guys going in the first place. The positive effect of this would not be felt for a few years but it would eventually happen.

There would be a tough transition for the Melbourne outfit but if they were to start up in 2011 then the 4 existing teams should be funded to increase their professional squad base in 2010. Every Super outfit has professional Academy players but the funding would enable them to increase the number of them.

The 4 S14 teams would use all their expanded number of pros, except those needed to play in a Super14 match, to form a totally professional A side to play in an APC type tournament with home and away matches against the other 3 A sides. It will be a stretch when S14 teams are touring but the existing A sides have amateur reserves now and they are happy to get the chance.

With a final it would run for 13 weeks and run concurrently with the S14 competition. Whenever possible it would be a curtain raiser to a S14 game. The ground is already rented.

During this tournament the gurus of the Melbourne team could make up a wish list of the best players they have spotted. The same procedure as when the Force had to man their squad would proceed but the ARU could give each Oz player a modest top up sweetener to go to Melbourne for 2 years.

Also, Melbourne should be enabled to get private funding to hire more overseas players than the other teams can have.


The above is complete drivel, and its only merit is to indicate that there are lots of ideas about how to get a 5th franchise up and running without selling the family jewels.

Having a 5th team would inevitably dilute the potency of the 4 present teams whatever happens, but having it would make the failure of the ARC less harmful.

About 28 Australian extra professional players would get on the park every year and there would be more jobs for Aussie coaches.

PS - I think that Melbourne is the best bet. There are several international companies who have their HQs in Melbourne who would be interested in sponsoring an international game - or so said the proposal put forward by the Victorians when they were tendering for the 4th franchise.

sorry to quote such a long post, but its a great one. Excellent points Lee and I agree pretty much 100%

 

[fatprop]

I really don't think we have the cattle at the moment to support another side. We can't even fill the sides we have

I would prefer a home and away S14. That would require expanded squads and that will be enough for the near future.

Baby steps and get our current sides more competitive is bloody important.

I also think the ARU should step in and motivate some players to transfer to fill weaknesses in the various squads and improve the players chances of further representation.

Sides like the Tahs had a shed load of nines & props, the Brumbies have cornered the locks and the Force had cornered the back three.

 

[RugbyReg]

and the Reds have cornered the Polynesians/kiwis.

 

[whocares]

Tahs, and to a lesser extent the Brumbies, have hookers as well while the Force have none.

What about bringing in a team from another country like Argentina or Pacific Islands or Japan.

I think the problems there is that Europe have all their good players and possibly a bit much travel-wise. But i think those problems can be solved. It would certainly help out their playing stocks.

 

[Lee Grant]

Its just so soon. 2010 means a decision to go with an extra Aussie team pretty much next week.

Yeah it's too soon which is why I had it starting in 2011 in my scenario.

I like the A's team idea, but I think the maths is a bit out - 5 teams playing each other twice with a single final would run for 9 weeks, 10 if you throw in a bye. If the S14 expands to S15, then we are talking 14 normal games plus 4 additional 'derbies' and 3 weeks of finals - around 22 weeks with a bye.

In my scenario I didn't have 5 teams playing, as in your example. I had the 4 existing S14 teams playing in a comp in 2010 (not the new team which would not come into existence until 2011). This home and away comp in 2010 involving 4 teams with a final would last 13 weeks. It's purpose would be mainly to prepare players, physically and technically, in case they were selected for the 5th Super team for 2011 - and also to serve as trial matches.

For this purpose the number of professionals at existing S14 franchises would have to be increased by bumping up the numbers of professional Academy players. For more or less the same reason the ARU had the 3 S12 teams get bigger squads the year before the Force played their first match - IIRR.

As to a similar type comp of A teams after the 5th team is under way: it is a separate topic. There would have to be bye weeks etc etc, but the main negative would be the cost. Mind you they already play each other now but I think its only 1 round and many of the players are amateurs - and I can't remember if the Force particpates.

It's all very well to have a capital cost for 1 year to help set up the 5th Super team. The ARU would chip in there, but an ongoing operating cost every year would have to be borne by the individual franchises.

It would great if it could be funded. It would be an ARC by another name.

 

[formeropenside]

I will only support a 5th team on the basis that no players leave Qld. Except maybe Digby going home.

 

[RugbyReg]

and Caleb Brown getting a start and perhaps Herman Hunt stepping up plus Dan Heenan & Nick Berry & Rodney Blake coming home,

 

[Lee Grant]

Tahs, and to a lesser extent the Brumbies, have hookers as well while the Force have none.

What about bringing in a team from another country like Argentina or Pacific Islands or Japan.

I think the problems there is that Europe have all their good players and possibly a bit much travel-wise. But i think those problems can be solved. It would certainly help out their playing stocks.

Right Tom, in fact the Force front rowers, including reserves, as a group, look weak don't they? [At least I didn't say again that LHP Jerry Yanuynautawa and hooker Nathan Charles should have gone west instead of to the Brumbies.]

The good players from Argentina and the PIs are earning too much money in Europe to ever come to play in a Super comp. Some might come for a year or two as a curiosity, especially at the end of their careers, but that's about it. If you asked a star like Juan Mart?n Hern?ndez if he would drop the Top 14 and play in the Super 14 at their pay rates, he wouldn't understand the question.

And they play from September to May in Europe and have to be on deck long before September.

I hope that there is a solution to this but I can't see it. Japan could have a team but they would have to liberalise the numbers of overseas players who are allowed to play in it. If it serves to get a large TV audience in Japan and thus get a bigger revenue pie for SANZAR, opening up Super rugby to the Japanese would be well worth it. And for the Japanese, their best domestic players will get a leg up in technique and skill.

 

[Scotty]

In my scenario I didn't have 5 teams playing, as in your example. I had the 4 existing S14 teams playing in a comp in 2010 (not the new team which would not come into existence until 2011). This home and away comp in 2010 involving 4 teams with a final would last 13 weeks. It's purpose would be mainly to prepare players, physically and technically, in case they were selected for the 5th Super team for 2011 - and also to serve as trial matches.

I think playing each four times might get a little boring. We are already complaining about a 3 round trinations.

I think an A team comp would have to include teams from NZ, but could only come after the addtional Oz S14 team is added and the Oz Super teams prove (hopefully) more financially viable - maybe with some being privatised.