Rugby League players who could have/could make the switch

[The Red Baron]

Tell that to Steven Price and Reuben Wiki...

Ha! Reuben Wiki started his first grade career at the Raiders in the centres!

 

[Ado Tornado]

I thought he was still committed to the Roosters for a while. Strange to have signed a 3 year deal and then have rumours about him talking to the Tahs.

If he went and got Khoder for his manager, then it's on the cards. The blokes a specialist in contract breaking. Either way we need a couple of league forwards across at the moment. The current lot couldn't poke a hole in a serviette.

I don't think it's a system issue as much as it is a recruitment issue. Many good young Union forwards also cut their teeth in league. I know that at the NSW junior champs this year one of the better sides in the U11's was made up entirely of boys who also played league. These kids need to be secured by us before the mungo's get them. and that starts a few years earlier than union is currently doing it.

If recruitment can't develop and keep the talent, then buy it across ready made. Thorne and SBW are prime recent examples of code hoppers who hit their straps quickly. So I don't buy that in this day and age of the fully pro rugby player that any union position can't be filled by a very good league player.

Give a decent scrum coach a month with a Gallen, Hannant, Kennedy, Asotasi or half a dozen other leaguies with the right build and you'd have a front row that would rip the arms of anything we've currently got.

Actually I think pretty much every Wallaby spot bar perhaps lock, would find a better player for that spot in the league ranks.

Imagine that, hard running forwards that know how to bust a line, halves that can land a ball on a sixpence, big centres that can run direct and offload to lightning fast finishers.

Get your chequebook out boys, there's got to be a few more where Rocky and Cliff came from. And they were reserve graders!

 

[wamberal]

SBW actually took a fair while to make an impact in rugby - he struggled along for a while in France. And he is a once in a generation talent. Thorn is the exception that proves the rule. How many other loig forwards have switched? Why is it that virtually every convert is a back? Have you thought about that?


The idea that loig players could quickly learn how to scrum is, frankly, ludicrous. Do you believe that they are (a) genetically superior or (b) their years of playing a game without any scrums, rucks, or mauls AT ALL somehow means that they can adapt to a totally different paradigm?


There are far more loig players in Australia, their base is much wider, but they are not better, stronger, faster, or more skilfull human beings than any other group in society. They do have pathways for kids to be virtually full-time from the age of 14 or so, which means that they might be pretty good athletes, but they are also pretty set in their ways. And a lack of education means that they are not all that wonderful at learning new tricks (another way of saying the same thing, I suppose).


Get a grip. Hard running forwards who can bust a 13 man defense in loig, where, by the way, the rules are totally different (10 metres in defense, no stripping of the ball in the tackle, to name just two huge differences) would not do the same thing in rugby just because you say they could.




Rugby and loig are quite different games, when you drill down into them. If you do not recognise the differences, then maybe you should pay a bit more attention.

 

[Ado Tornado]

So Wamberal, let tell you a little story about a bloke called Nic Henderson. Played league all his life and was recruited by the Storm. Then one day he gets picked up by the Brumbies. Laurier fisher says right I'm going to make you prop and pops him the front row with Ben Darwin. After over 100 super caps and a few tests in the green and gold he retires.

Another story. Not about a league player but a flanker who played first grade at Eastwood. Realising he was never going to get higher honours as a flanker, this bloke makes the switch to loose head prop. Within the year he's at the Tahs as a prop, goes on to win a world cup and a place in the Wallas team of the decade. His name is Richard Harry.

Don't kid yourself that becoming a decent rugby prop is some amazingly impossible position that takes decades to master. It doesn't. You need the right build, be a good footy player, have the commitment and a scrum coach who knows how to get you there.

Like I said earlier, Gallen and a bunch of other leaguies are custom built for the job.

As for the rest of your rubbish. Where do you think Palu and Elsom came from? The bulldogs and Dragons respectively. How about Andy Farrel who at 36 found himself on the side of the England scrum. Yes there are more backs that have made the jump, but the same can be said coming the other way. Ray Price, Ben Keennedy, Scott Gourley and Bob Cooper are the only Aussies union forwards I can recall cutting it in league.

As for them being better, stronger, faster well I'll just quote Matt Rogers from yesterday's paper on that one. His comment was in relation to JOC (James O'Connor) and why he wouldn't cut it. "League players train harder and play harder"

As for hard running forwards, breaking defensive lines is what league is all about. The players are trained for explosive power in the contact. Union forwards aren't. And you can strip the ball in league, it just has to be man on man. So you might want to brush up on you rule book. Don't get me going on defence either. Ever wondered what league blokes like Muggleton and Kiss do for a living?

As for the kids, you need to go and check out what the good ones do. I think you'll find the vast majority play both until they get a scholarship at somewhere like Keebra Park. Or an NRL side gets them. Even then, a lot of them still play union.

Maybe it's you that need to pay a bit more attention mate because you clearly are not a student of either game.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So Wamberal, let tell you a little story about a bloke called Nic Henderson. Played league all his life and was recruited by the Storm. Then one day he gets picked up by the Brumbies. Laurier fisher says right I'm going to make you prop and pops him the front row with Ben Darwin. After over 100 super caps and a few tests in the green and gold he retires.

Another story. Not about a league player but a flanker who played first grade at Eastwood. Realising he was never going to get higher honours as a flanker, this bloke makes the switch to loose head prop. Within the year he's at the Tahs as a prop, goes on to win a world cup and a place in the Wallas team of the decade. His name is Richard Harry.

Don't kid yourself that becoming a decent rugby prop is some amazingly impossible position that takes decades to master. It doesn't. You need the right build, be a good footy player, have the commitment and a scrum coach who knows how to get you there.

Like I said earlier, Gallen and a bunch of other leaguies are custom built for the job.

As for the rest of your rubbish. Where do you think Palu and Elsom came from? The bulldogs and Dragons respectively. How about Andy Farrel who at 36 found himself on the side of the England scrum. Yes there are more backs that have made the jump, but the same can be said coming the other way. Ray Price, Ben Keennedy, Scott Gourley and Bob Cooper are the only Aussies union forwards I can recall cutting it in league.

As for them being better, stronger, faster well I'll just quote Matt Rogers from yesterday's paper on that one. His comment was in relation to JOC (James O'Connor) and why he wouldn't cut it. "League players train harder and play harder"

As for hard running forwards, breaking defensive lines is what league is all about. The players are trained for explosive power in the contact. Union forwards aren't. And you can strip the ball in league, it just has to be man on man. So you might want to brush up on you rule book. Don't get me going on defence either. Ever wondered what league blokes like Muggleton and Kiss do for a living?

As for the kids, you need to go and check out what the good ones do. I think you'll find the vast majority play both until they get a scholarship at somewhere like Keebra Park. Or an NRL side gets them. Even then, a lot of them still play union.

Maybe it's you that need to pay a bit more attention mate because you clearly are not a student of either game.

That's complete rubbish.

 

[wamberal]

Dear oh bloody dear. A village has lost its idiot.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Dear oh bloody dear. A village has lost its idiot.

I like the bit where he says that League forwards are trained for power efforts and Rugby forwards aren't. I have a little experience with the programs developed for Rugby players and there are a lot of exercises specifically designed for the purpose of developing the ability to perform multiple explosive movements going into contact.

Actually, there was an interesting documentary called "Search for Hurt" on ESPN recently. A former professional triathlete (Matt Murphy) went about participating in 12 distance/obstacle races. Part of his preparation was to train with elite trainers and sports teams.

During his series he trained with both the Rebels and Wallabies. He concluded that their entire training regime was all about explosive and powerful movements.

He also trained with the Cowboys, and noted the difference. They trained with lighter weights in a more aerobic nature. He made the comparison as a objective observer.

I don't know his experience in Rugby, perhaps its only at the village club Rugby. But when you start to get more serious in the Colts level. While a large percentage of your pre-season training is focused on aerobic endurance, a great deal more is focused (particularly as a forward) on being able to hit the line/scrum or lift in the lineout/kickoff as explosively as possible.

 

[USARugger]

Almost like League is a largely aerobic game with with less stoppage between passages of play and the requirement of near-constant moderate exertion in order to constantly realign while Union has many more stoppages and much of the game is based around explosive effort following the set piece..or something crazy like that.

 

[wamberal]

The two codes are actually quite different in some important respects - of course there are also some similarities.

But when somebody starts prattling on about how superior loig players are, I switch off.


History shows us that there are some good players in both codes, but the good players are not necessarily interchangeable. Yes, some switch, and do well. But the vast majority have been backs, switching either way over the years.


Given that the best backs in loig get paid considerably more than the best forwards, perhaps there is a reason that the overwhelming majority of loig players who have been enticed to rugby are actually backs. Surely, given the importance of the forward pack in rugby, it would make sense to buy loig forwards instead of loig backs, if loig forwards are so superior to ours? Value for money, and all that? But apparently not. Perhaps rugby coaches know a bit more about rugby than our clever friend.

 

[en_force_er]

He only re-signed at he roostesr last year for 3 more years. Doubt they would let SBW and JWH both leave without putting up a fight.

I agree, but how great would it be.

The bloke could well be a Liam Messam type player. He's got all the assets; aggression, bulk, workrate, and a nice offloading game.

The Tahs are a good place for him to go too, he'd be in a good system.

 

[en_force_er]

Given that the best backs in loig get paid considerably more than the best forwards, perhaps there is a reason that the overwhelming majority of loig players who have been enticed to rugby are actually backs. Surely, given the importance of the forward pack in rugby, it would make sense to buy loig forwards instead of loig backs, if loig forwards are so superior to ours? Value for money, and all that? But apparently not. Perhaps rugby coaches know a bit more about rugby than our clever friend.

I agree with you, I certainly don't think leaguies are inherently better and I can't back an argument where Nic Henderson is the go to example of a new world order, but he's got a point that MORE could be done.

Even League's best, Wayne Bennett, doesn't think a prop in league is that important (there's a quote about him not being willing to pay them much somewhere). So, surely some poaching could be done. I'm not suggesting we do a lot, but we could and should do more than we do now.

 

[wamberal]

I'm not suggesting we do a lot, but we could and should do more than we do now.

Given the uproar of criticism that followed the ARU's coup in signing Israel Folau, can you imagine what would happen if they threw money at a loig forward - unless he already had a signficant background in rugby, that is.

Backs are, or should be, easily transferrable, they also have the advantage of being the marquee players that unaligned supporters are interested in watching. (I recall that Lote was thought to draw very well for the Tahs).

Signing a well known forward would be a risk for everybody involved. A back can come into our game and make an impact immediately, in theory at least. A forward would need a whole lot more coaching. I seem to recall that Robbie Deans put a lot of his personal time into coaching Brad Thorn in the finer points of tight forward play when he signed with the Crusaders.

 

[TOCC]

Talent and potential wise the best union players are on par with their league counterparts...

However, the player development of not only their strength and conditioning but also their basic skill-set at some NRL clubs is significantly ahead of our super rugby franchises and the wallabies..

Rugby league has been professional longer, they have a larger revenue/coaching/playing pool to develop S&C and Sport Science practices. Rugby Union has obviously come on in leaps and bounds but doesn't have the funding to completely bridge the gaps against some clubs like the Storm, Manly or Broncos.

It's my opinion that with these extra assets that a few NRL clubs have at their disposal they are able to develop and refine the skills sets of players at a faster rate.

 

[wamberal]

They also tend to sign players up at an earlier age. Not all that long ago it was pretty standard for 14 or 15 year old kids to be on full-time professional contracts - not sure whether that still applies (if it does, the players are probably on scholarships at sporting or GPS schools).

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Talent and potential wise the best union players are on par with their league counterparts.

However, the player development of not only their strength and conditioning but also their basic skill-set at some NRL clubs is significantly ahead of our super rugby franchises and the wallabies..

Rugby league has been professional longer, they have a larger revenue/coaching/playing pool to develop S&C and Sport Science practices. Rugby Union has obviously come on in leaps and bounds but doesn't have the funding to completely bridge the gaps against some clubs like the Storm, Manly or Broncos.

It's my opinion that with these extra assets that a few NRL clubs have at their disposal they are able to develop and refine the skills sets of players at a faster rate.

The difference has always been their ability to professionalise the training and development of players at a younger age. Many of the potential future 'stars' in RL start on their intensive physical and skills development from as young as 14 with professional training regimes. By the time they reach the NYC they are already well into their development.

It's an area Rugby has either overlooked or has been reluctant to embrace until recently. I get the impression with the stated goals and functions of the JGC that it is looking to emulate the junior development systems of RL.

 

[Fitzo]

As a New Zealander, this thread is amusing. How many Kiwis were in that NRL GF? Who holds the Rugby League world cup? And yet we would never be so desperate as to think "if only we had their players". The fact is, being good at League only means you will be good at some things in Rugby. The Kiwis players dream of making the ABs and I don't care if that sounds condescending.

Take this quote from SBW:

When assistant coach Jason Taylor addressed the squad at a meeting before the start of the season, Williams kept notes of what he said – something the former Parramatta and South Sydney coach had not seen any NRL player do.
"I got that from rugby because there are so many different aspects of the game that you have to know and I reckon that is why I got to understand it," Williams said.
"I find that if I write down a heap of things when we are talking at meetings I can go back and take out the things I need.
"But league is not an overly complicated game to be honest and I am a bit embarrassed to take my pen and notepad into the meetings.
"So I just try to be really attentive and take out the few key things that they say in video and I go back and write it down when I get home."

Even a supreme athlete like SBW took a long time to learn the game, he was only really challenging Nonu in 2012. Reminder that he was sitting on the bench in the semi and final of the RWC (probably part of his motivation to return).

A guy like Brad Thorn wasn't a star in rugby because he was making bullocking runs or big hits, it's because he was a hard worker in the less glamourous parts of the game. Can other League players learn to do this? Of course, an athlete is an athlete. But to say a guy would kill it at rugby because he is a good league player is indicative of the sad state of the Australian rugby mindset.

NRL clubs like Melbourne are signing NZ schoolboy rugby players over Australian league players. What does that say about the professionalism of league in Australia that they pick a guy in another country playing a different code over their own players? Or look at Daniel Adongo, could barely get a start for the Kings and is now in the NFL. The fact is that being good at rugby is a whole different thing to being great at rugby.

 

[TOCC]

The difference has always been their ability to professionalise the training and development of players at a younger age. Many of the potential future 'stars' in RL start on their intensive physical and skills development from as young as 14 with professional training regimes. By the time they reach the NYC they are already well into their development.

It's an area Rugby has either overlooked or has been reluctant to embrace until recently. I get the impression with the stated goals and functions of the JGC that it is looking to emulate the junior development systems of RL.

If this were the case, why are so many rugby union schoolboys having success in the NRL at the equivalent age as their rugby league schoolboy equivalents.

I actually think that rugby union is on par in terms of player development up until they finish high-school(mainly thanks to the private school teams)... It's in the U17-U21 age bracket that rugby union in Australia falls down do badly..

If you look at the Australian Schoolboys they are actually competitive against their New Zealand counterparts, but at the U20 level their is a massive gap and this subsequently takes years or is never caught up.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

If this were the case, why are so many rugby union schoolboys having success in the NRL at the equivalent age as their rugby league schoolboy equivalents.

I actually think that rugby union is on par in terms of player development up until they finish high-school(mainly thanks to the private school teams). It's in the U17-U21 age bracket that rugby union in Australia falls down do badly..

If you look at the Australian Schoolboys they are actually competitive against their New Zealand counterparts, but at the U20 level their is a massive gap and this subsequently takes years or is never caught up.

I don't know about Queensland but a lot of those Schoolboy's who cross over to League come from a league background as well. As mentioned earlier, many play both codes and are identified early by both.

I was fortunate enough to play a lot of representative Rugby during my playing days. So I had exposure to how things were done. Physical training, I mean organised professional programs weren't the norm. I was fortunate enough that my club participated in a program that looked to overcome that (it's since ceased its existence) for talented players from the U14/15 age group or if you were able (like myself) from 13.

I also got a taste of what was needed at a Rugby camp when I was 14 by training with the U16/17s and getting to spend time with the Tahs trainer of the day. But my experience wasn't the norm.

My understanding that there are attempts to implement similar regimes via regional academies but they are limited due to the availability of resources.

What League in NSW has at least is not necessarily a uniform system for developing players, but a system in which each club has their own development programs that are professionally developed and delivered.

As for the differences between the Schoolboys and U20s. That comes down to competition. The Kiwi system is geared toward provincial rugby. If you watched some ITM Cup this season you would have noted a number of young blokes running around at a level of competition our boys can only dream of. Our current Colts level isn't sufficiently tough to ensure our talented Schoolboys continue their development both as players and physically.

Frankly, with all the talk around a third tier at present, I could live with a decision from the ARU to scrap any ambition and look to add another tier to the JGC program at the U20s level. It wouldn't need the 24 centres. You could actually cut that in half to 12 or even 10. Keep them in a professional program and further develop them both in skills/game sense and physically in that competition. From there they can flow into club Rugby.

It's a similar set up to the Holden Cup and I think would actually help in retaining talent as many players follow the opportunity to compete at the highest possible level of competition and at present, that is at the U20 level the Holden Cup.

 

[Bullrush]

Ha! Reuben Wiki started his first grade career at the Raiders in the centres!

But that's not where he finished

 

[Zander]

If this were the case, why are so many rugby union schoolboys having success in the NRL at the equivalent age as their rugby league schoolboy equivalents.

I actually think that rugby union is on par in terms of player development up until they finish high-school(mainly thanks to the private school teams). It's in the U17-U21 age bracket that rugby union in Australia falls down do badly..

If you look at the Australian Schoolboys they are actually competitive against their New Zealand counterparts, but at the U20 level their is a massive gap and this subsequently takes years or is never caught up.

Nailed it.