Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
non neutral only matters if it's thought to be the result of bias, surely?
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Ref blew it for Brumbies: SANZAR
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Of course, but when a ref is non-neutral, it clouds the issue in the eyes of some. Neutral refs eliminates a potential source of contention.
I personally doubt that refs adjudicate on national or provincial lines at all.
Kaplan does hate the Tahs, though!!
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
Just gonna throw it out there, after watching several hundred replays of it over the course of the last few days, I actually don't believe he knocked it on, it went backwards then bounced forward.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Nah, it definitely went forward...
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
I was with you, watched it live, was outraged, watched it several times since, equal outrage then something about it on the rugby club just made it seem like there was a chance it was the right call. We need some sort of cricket like hot spot scientific after effect to work it out, either way, I'm no longer outraged as much.
BPC
Phil Hardcastle (33)
Perhaps that was the point of waiting until Thursday.
C
Cave Dweller
Guest
I wanted to post this earlier but was in a hurry so I could not explain everything in detail. I am in a very lucky position as I do not really support any of the franchises. I just enjoy the rugby and watch them battle it out.
When I see a story or a piece of news I always go look for the same story on websites of SA, Aus and NZ. This is where I noticed the difference between the 3 countries media and maybe it has a reflection on the way of how the countries are when expressing a view. Now I have notice the press are more like devided into levels if I can use that as a marker to show the difference. Now level 1 is the objective reporting without too much critism and those are normally the sites like Supersport.co.za and www.keo.co.za/2012/03/10/brumbies-vs-cheetahs-0635-ko/ if I take the Brumbies report. Here is just a example
Now level 2 is the blogger patriotic fan who reports the story on his blog or where ever. Same story from http://www.frontrowgrunt.co.za/2012/03/rugby-in-the-emergency-room/
Please do not point fingers at the referee as I am just using examples in the difference between the media between the countries and the huge impact it has on everything.
Now Australia's media is more like a level 2. They cut to the chase and tell it straight. Maybe the australian folks can just tell me if www.smh.com.au are a site compare to SA's Supertzone and are part of the bigger newsgroups. Now this was a article I found over the aftermath of the WC. Once again I ask you please to ignore the quoted story but look at it in a way how the countries media report a story and the differences.
Now you can see its a level 1 and 2 mix. Layout and the source is level 1 but the manner it is expressed is almost like the blogger quoted earlier. I have heard the Australian commentators in some of the test matches and I always wondered how the lets say Saffer supporters must eitheer switched of the sound or say ugly words to some of the commentators because lol I think they can work on a fans nerves when Australia beat them. They are not totally biased but they are just Australian as the patriotism showed in some of the threads like the Reds thread. But basically its short and sweet and a tipsy of rub it in just enough but not too much. But I think it sounded better when Kearns joined them as I always loved he's remarks and he will get excited for good play not just one side etc etc
NZ again for me has guys almost like Kearns they enjoy good rugby and will call it like it is does not matter if its the opposition or NZ they will give credit where credit is due. Not all but anyways it all just comes down to the tones and pitches of their voices more than anything.
Now you might think ok CD WT has this to do with the lot. Now I saw this thing coming on a mile away when I saw a piece over Bryce Lawrence and the match between the Blues and the Highlanders. The link towards the article is imbeded in the headline if you want to read the full one
Super Rugby Round 9 Findings and Questions
When I saw that I was thinking OK he maybe did not see the Brumbies game. I read some of the comments over at Testrugby.com as they are affiliated with each the sites and that incident was mentioned in a users post.
Couple of days later this
Neutral Super Rugby Referees - Jonker Has Never Refereed A Losing Bulls Side
Now can one see what just a headline and a couple of lines can do and get the public up in arms throwing stones at the referees. I mention this cause in my country I have seen it happen time and time again in football. You all seen it too somewhere I think theres lots of you-toube videos of a ref scaling the fence with a angry mob behind him. It looks funny but I have seen it happen before my eyes and I can tell you its one of the saddest and shocking things to see. It happens because its easy to use the emotion and the passion of the supporters and get them all worked up. Each of the countries press just know how to do it as you see the examples above.
But now we are all worked up and look at the referees rather than the events. Now the above was written by NZ and I think that site is a NZ one but that is the level 2 guy explained earlier.
Now lets move on to the NZ more of a level source. Of course they are the neutral party now in the affair as Saffer and Australian papers, supporters, mothers, daughters, chickens whatever is pointing out and are worked up. Jake White and Co has joined in.
Now this is a article written on Rugby Heaven
Referees get help to eradicate rugby howlers
The link is embedded so just click on the headline above for the full story and some findings about other referees. I am just going to concentrate on this one issue. This is what happened.
Now can one see how the story turn from the incident happening into a lava molded firepit where liters of gasoline gets dumped on it day by day by the media and then us as fans will grab that and run with it. From Jonker being not partial to the Bulls has never lost a game he has officiated when they were playing. I can post almost half a page of things a referee must watch out for at the scrum which takes place under a minute. About 30 to 40 things he must watch for and watch the scrum from the 8th man to the front row and make sure they do not try the special techniques to milk penalties etc etc. That is why everyone has moved on to the crooked throw in the scrum. It is not that the referee ignores it but he does not have a extra set of eyes to watch that.
Now in that article they call for more from the TMO but where is the point where it will become like a Grid Iron affair with the small tv's gettin pushed on the field and the ref watches replays ever 5 to 6 minutes. Don't you think it is better that we accept the fact that they are human and that sometimes it will go against you? Happens in football all the time. They have learned to accept it and without that controversial decisions banter would been almost non existant between english fans.
But this whole affair showed me one thing and that is how the media can play with the supporters by bending a simple headline.
Appoligies for the long around the world story but I felt that aspect had to be shown. Hope I did not bore you all.
When I see a story or a piece of news I always go look for the same story on websites of SA, Aus and NZ. This is where I noticed the difference between the 3 countries media and maybe it has a reflection on the way of how the countries are when expressing a view. Now I have notice the press are more like devided into levels if I can use that as a marker to show the difference. Now level 1 is the objective reporting without too much critism and those are normally the sites like Supersport.co.za and www.keo.co.za/2012/03/10/brumbies-vs-cheetahs-0635-ko/ if I take the Brumbies report. Here is just a example
Now level 2 is the blogger patriotic fan who reports the story on his blog or where ever. Same story from http://www.frontrowgrunt.co.za/2012/03/rugby-in-the-emergency-room/
Please do not point fingers at the referee as I am just using examples in the difference between the media between the countries and the huge impact it has on everything.
Now Australia's media is more like a level 2. They cut to the chase and tell it straight. Maybe the australian folks can just tell me if www.smh.com.au are a site compare to SA's Supertzone and are part of the bigger newsgroups. Now this was a article I found over the aftermath of the WC. Once again I ask you please to ignore the quoted story but look at it in a way how the countries media report a story and the differences.
Now you can see its a level 1 and 2 mix. Layout and the source is level 1 but the manner it is expressed is almost like the blogger quoted earlier. I have heard the Australian commentators in some of the test matches and I always wondered how the lets say Saffer supporters must eitheer switched of the sound or say ugly words to some of the commentators because lol I think they can work on a fans nerves when Australia beat them. They are not totally biased but they are just Australian as the patriotism showed in some of the threads like the Reds thread. But basically its short and sweet and a tipsy of rub it in just enough but not too much. But I think it sounded better when Kearns joined them as I always loved he's remarks and he will get excited for good play not just one side etc etc
NZ again for me has guys almost like Kearns they enjoy good rugby and will call it like it is does not matter if its the opposition or NZ they will give credit where credit is due. Not all but anyways it all just comes down to the tones and pitches of their voices more than anything.
Now you might think ok CD WT has this to do with the lot. Now I saw this thing coming on a mile away when I saw a piece over Bryce Lawrence and the match between the Blues and the Highlanders. The link towards the article is imbeded in the headline if you want to read the full one
Super Rugby Round 9 Findings and Questions
http://www.superrugbytips.com/
When I saw that I was thinking OK he maybe did not see the Brumbies game. I read some of the comments over at Testrugby.com as they are affiliated with each the sites and that incident was mentioned in a users post.
Couple of days later this
Neutral Super Rugby Referees - Jonker Has Never Refereed A Losing Bulls Side
http://www.superrugbytips.com/2012/04/neutral-super-rugby-referees-jonker-has.html
Now can one see what just a headline and a couple of lines can do and get the public up in arms throwing stones at the referees. I mention this cause in my country I have seen it happen time and time again in football. You all seen it too somewhere I think theres lots of you-toube videos of a ref scaling the fence with a angry mob behind him. It looks funny but I have seen it happen before my eyes and I can tell you its one of the saddest and shocking things to see. It happens because its easy to use the emotion and the passion of the supporters and get them all worked up. Each of the countries press just know how to do it as you see the examples above.
But now we are all worked up and look at the referees rather than the events. Now the above was written by NZ and I think that site is a NZ one but that is the level 2 guy explained earlier.
Now lets move on to the NZ more of a level source. Of course they are the neutral party now in the affair as Saffer and Australian papers, supporters, mothers, daughters, chickens whatever is pointing out and are worked up. Jake White and Co has joined in.
Now this is a article written on Rugby Heaven
Referees get help to eradicate rugby howlers
The link is embedded so just click on the headline above for the full story and some findings about other referees. I am just going to concentrate on this one issue. This is what happened.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/6814259/Referees-get-help-to-eradicate-rugby-howlers
Now can one see how the story turn from the incident happening into a lava molded firepit where liters of gasoline gets dumped on it day by day by the media and then us as fans will grab that and run with it. From Jonker being not partial to the Bulls has never lost a game he has officiated when they were playing. I can post almost half a page of things a referee must watch out for at the scrum which takes place under a minute. About 30 to 40 things he must watch for and watch the scrum from the 8th man to the front row and make sure they do not try the special techniques to milk penalties etc etc. That is why everyone has moved on to the crooked throw in the scrum. It is not that the referee ignores it but he does not have a extra set of eyes to watch that.
Now in that article they call for more from the TMO but where is the point where it will become like a Grid Iron affair with the small tv's gettin pushed on the field and the ref watches replays ever 5 to 6 minutes. Don't you think it is better that we accept the fact that they are human and that sometimes it will go against you? Happens in football all the time. They have learned to accept it and without that controversial decisions banter would been almost non existant between english fans.
But this whole affair showed me one thing and that is how the media can play with the supporters by bending a simple headline.
Appoligies for the long around the world story but I felt that aspect had to be shown. Hope I did not bore you all.
en_force_er
Geoff Shaw (53)
What's with Sanzar and protecting some members of their organisation stead-fastly and throwing others under the bus.
Did they ever apologise for that quick lineout in the Wales-Ireland 6N game in 2011? I don't believe they did and it was a MUCH bigger deal.
Did they ever apologise for that quick lineout in the Wales-Ireland 6N game in 2011? I don't believe they did and it was a MUCH bigger deal.
What has SANZAR got to do with 6N?
C
Cave Dweller
Guest
Why must Sanzar apologize for 6 Nations match where the IRB assigned the referee and the referee is a representative of the IRB and not Sanzar.
Super Rugby --> Sanzar
International Rugby -->IRB
Sorry Bh you beat me to it.
en_force_er
Geoff Shaw (53)
Yeah, a pretty ridiculous blunder on my part but my general point still stands.
Why should an international rugger organisation (whatever their organisation that is), point the finger at a ref for a blunder that "costs the game" when they don't point out a ref that would perhaps make 10 blunders that don't.
Where's the consistency? At what point does the organisations media team decide that writing up a press release on the issue is a necessity?
Why should an international rugger organisation (whatever their organisation that is), point the finger at a ref for a blunder that "costs the game" when they don't point out a ref that would perhaps make 10 blunders that don't.
Where's the consistency? At what point does the organisations media team decide that writing up a press release on the issue is a necessity?
Torn Hammy
Johnnie Wallace (23)
This press release is good if indicates that SANZAR are not going to tolerate substandard refereeing performances. Bryce Lawrence is an example of what you get when referees aren't challenged in the public domain by the governing body.
While everyone is focussing on the knock on, Jake White seems more concerned about the overall performance of Jonker. My feeling was that the ref was very hard on the Brumbies at the breakdown and yet quite lenient on the Bulls and I expected a stronger reaction from Brumby fans.
I agree with those who feel the refs need more help.
While everyone is focussing on the knock on, Jake White seems more concerned about the overall performance of Jonker. My feeling was that the ref was very hard on the Brumbies at the breakdown and yet quite lenient on the Bulls and I expected a stronger reaction from Brumby fans.
I agree with those who feel the refs need more help.
Troy
Jim Clark (26)
Looks like they are considering helping the ref's next year by using the TMO..
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/6814259/Referees-get-help-to-eradicate-rugby-howlers
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/6814259/Referees-get-help-to-eradicate-rugby-howlers
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
There's not a lot in it. I've watched it a lot in HD in slow motion and the only way you can judge it is to look at a mark on the ground perpendicular to where the pill left Steyn's hands. Keep doing that until you can identify the mark, then compare it to the spot where the ball bounced. You have to do that a few times because you lose the first mark, then you lose the second etc.
Once you are satisfied, then you have judge where the lines across the ground would have been if there was one in the shot where Steyn dropped it. There wasn't one; so you have create a notional line in your mind from watching the actual lines earlier in the phase.
I thought the ball bounced on the ground about 6 inches in front of the plane of where it came away from his hands, but there was an illusion created that he didn't knock it on. Steyn took steps in the process of running to catch the ball and went past the spot and turned sideways and back, giving an illusion of backwardness or at least sidewayness.
There's a not a lot in it, as I said; but it's one of those things that if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a knock on.
Incidentally, it was the AR who made the call for play to carry on.
.
Blue
Andrew Slack (58)
I think that was the first ref blunder in that game. The second blunder was that 30 mins in he warned the Brumbies about penalties in the red zone. All they did was to start committing the same infringements outside the red zone and got away with it. Fair play to them but the Bulls attack was stifled illegally time and time again.
My point is you can find things to whicnge about it any ga,me. Some are more blatant than opthers but you can.
My point is you can find things to whicnge about it any ga,me. Some are more blatant than opthers but you can.
Ruggo
Mark Ella (57)
Refs are human and make mistakes. What concerns me is that the three of them missed something so obvious. I don't envy the refs at all but the touch judges need to be held to account more. It is frustrating as a fan to see them miss several things then interupt the game over something trivial.
Slim 293
Stirling Mortlock (74)
Indeed...
My beef with the assistant refs this year seems to be is that they only involve themselves when they're not needed...
Kaplan was actually pretty good tonight though...
So true. They call the 5cm forward passes and some marginal foul play OK, but seem to miss howlers that go 3 feet forward, or ones like this. I suspect a lot has to do with some lacking confidence to pipe up, and some refs making it clear they don't welcome the help. That's my theory, anyway.
Kaplan was OK tonight. He still hates the Tahs, though. I could tell.
Brumbieman
Dick Tooth (41)
It's really irrelevant, guys. We lost fair and square, because we were very ill-disciplined at the ruck. You could argue we didn't really get any of the 50-50 calls, and I may agree, but that knock on, however blatant it was, didn't cost us the game.
WE finished two points short, with a try under the posts after the hooter. 15misn after the Bulls switched off because they had it won. I'm proud of our lads for their commitment to the fightback in ensuring we got 2 points rather than none, but we didn't lose the game from that knock on.
WE finished two points short, with a try under the posts after the hooter. 15misn after the Bulls switched off because they had it won. I'm proud of our lads for their commitment to the fightback in ensuring we got 2 points rather than none, but we didn't lose the game from that knock on.
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