Recording and Using Statistics For Rugby

[Inside Shoulder]

Scott Allen - or anyone else: I am stepping back into slightly more serious coaching (U15's) after more than 10 years coaching only young kids. Given the stats you analysed I'm wondering if there is an app available for managing rugby teams. My primary concern is to be able to ensure an adequate spread of game time but keeping some of the stats you blokes mention might give us more insight into where we can help the boys reach their potential.
Started designing a database but thought someone who knows more than me has probably already done this.

 

[Scott Allen]

Scott Allen - or anyone else: I am stepping back into slightly more serious coaching (U15's) after more than 10 years coaching only young kids. Given the stats you analysed I'm wondering if there is an app available for managing rugby teams. My primary concern is to be able to ensure an adequate spread of game time but keeping some of the stats you blokes mention might give us more insight into where we can help the boys reach their potential.
Started designing a database but thought someone who knows more than me has probably already done this.

Keeping stats live is hard work, particularly if you want to record players. If you're standing on the sideline and you want to record breakdown involvements you've got to be able to pick up which player was involved (which is hard with bodies in the way), look down and record that, then often you look up quickly again to find the next ruck has formed quickly and you missed it. Even if you have video shot from ground level it's very hard to identify players.

If you want to record some simple stats I've seen this app for Iphones, Ipad etc used and it seemed to work reasonably well http://www.dartfish.com/en/software/dartfish-easytag/index.htm

Using that you could record simple stats like dropped ball, breakdowns lost, lineout and scrum outcomes, penalties given away - recording that many things is about the limit you'd want to aim for. It keeps a tally which you can review just before halftime to confirm your thoughts on which area of the game needs attention.

Another way to keep those sorts of stats is to use a voice recorder and simply make a quick note of those events occurring. Later you can tally them up so that you can confirm your thoughts on areas to focus on for training the following week.

That doesn't help with keeping a record of your playing minutes but you could make those notes on your voice recorder and enter them in your database later.

 

[Braveheart81]

Inside Shoulder - these days there will surely be half the parents on the sideline filming the game. Maybe you can do your stats and compiling how long each player is on the field by rewatching the game later.

 

[Man on the hill]

Assuming you're coaching in SJRU U15 comp - you only get 5 opportunities to make subs in a game anyway - simplifies the equation a great deal. That - and my personal experience was if a parent didn't like how much game time their special needs child got - they told you!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Inside Shoulder, there was a little bit of talk about stats a while back on the Rugby Coaching Thread.
Our beautiful came is too complex to be reduced to a series of numbers.This word of caution here from It is what it is, albeit set in mungoland.

2 examples of the flaws in stats, both from rugby league.
- Years ago when Jack Gibson coached Souths he purposely positioned Charlie Frith on one side of their defence. No big deal except Jack knew that opposition players were terrified of Charlie's brutal hits and wouldn't run anywhere near him if half smart. Jack was therefore able to regularly play Charlie's side of the ruck short staffed in defence. Re the stats, 2 things resulted...Charlie and his side of the ruck made fewer tackles and the other side made many more. Today's stats gurus would make the stupid claim that Charlie wasn't doing enough in defence!!!
- Playing at Sydney Roosters, Minichello has been a good fullback for many years. These days however he 'pads out' his running yards by getting into dummy half on the 1st tackle after the Roosters run the ball back. This enables him to gain good yardage when the defence is still aligning and boost his 'metres per game stats', a key determinant of a full back's performance. This is not what he is paid to do however. He is supposed to make ground as the initial returner of the ball from kicks. His initial return metres are down considerably, but he drives them back up by 6-10m runs into forwards without any penetration. Just looking at his overall run stats, things look better than they really are.

From my experience, it is best to keep it really simple, and not to put too much faith in the stats gathered. To do it "properly" (and use a video analysis tool) takes too much time for a volunteer U15 level coach/manager team - a figure of 4 hours per game has been quoted. To subcontract to a parent/s is going to skew the results. In my experience, they miss so much that the data gathered is essentially meaningless. To do the detailed stats gathering yourself and do it properly will detract from your ability to do the "Dennis Denuto" and get the "vibe" of how the game is going, what is working what is not working, what needs to be worked on at training next week etc. The Coach needs to have their head out of "the book" and watch the game as it unfolds in all its splendour in front of them.

 

[Scott Allen]

Hugh, those two examples you re-posted from IIWII are are both questionable.

Anyone looking at stats for league would know that stats are also kept for which side teams attack towards. Any coach or analyst looking at stats for one player in defence would compare them to the work rate of other other players on that side of defence and the percentage of times the attacking team ran at that side. Without the stats to show how much activity there was on that side of the defence, people may indeed say that from their observations Charlie hadn't been working very hard.

With the quick play the ball in league, many backs are called upon to do exactly what Minichello does - you see most wingers and fullbacks coming in to try and scoot from dummy half to try and make that 6-10 metres. The stats are kept for runs from dummy half and out wide, not just total run metres so once again analysing the stats shows the coach or selector what is really going on.

Stats only form one part of the considerations when analysing a game and hopefully all they do is confirm a coach's views from their own observation. If their observations are continually at odds with the stats the stats may not be being kept accurately or the coach may not observing closely enough.

Agree with your comments that at U15 level, it should be kept simple.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Assuming you're coaching in SJRU U15 comp - you only get 5 opportunities to make subs in a game anyway - simplifies the equation a great deal. That - and my personal experience was if a parent didn't like how much game time their special needs child got - they told you!

it is this rule that has prompted my concern - unlimited interchange gives a great chance for fudging but I (a) feel some responsibility to the kids to keep it as fair as possible (acknowledging all the issues that entails) and (b) would love the stats to be able to answer any such criticism

will detract from your ability to do the "Dennis Denuto"[/quote]
I've got the bit where I offer them a glass of water down pat.
I don't want to complicate it - believe me and the idea that there would be sufficient structure to be able to plant a bloke anywhere is, lets just say, amusing!

 

[Braveheart81]

Inside Shoulder - your main stat should be how many lots of abuse you cop from parents of your players each week.

Find what the average is early in the season and then if you can lower that, you're doing a good job.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Scott Allen, the selective use of the quote was really to illustrate what you have so eloquently stated at the start of your second last paragraph above.

The reality of what the professional game analysts look at, and how they interpret and present the data gathered is accurate for the top level. I would be surprised if that level of detail was found at village park or age grade (outside of SG Ball, Howard Matthews [Representative]).

Stats are just another tool that can be used by the coaching staff (or Coach [u15]), but they shouldn't be seen as an absolute. You just need to look at the differences in the stats counts on the various web sites that publish these for Super Rugby and Test matches....., and these are from professionals using industry strength tools and techniques to acquire the stats.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Inside Shoulder - your main stat should be how many lots of abuse you cop from parents of your players each week.

Find what the average is early in the season and then if you can lower that, you're doing a good job.

I think you would be doing a good job if you could lower the abuse level but improve the competition result.
I am only "assisting" so all care but no responsibility!

 

[boyo]

The use of a digital voice recorder may be a good idea. They mean that you don't have to stuff around with tapes, they are small and lightweight, they have time and date stamps, and often can be connected to a PC.

Pros:
You can watch the match rather than a clipboard, iPhone, etc.

Cons:
You don't have the statistics for the current match because you haven't sorted them yet.

It largely depends on what you want to achieve.

 

[Scott Allen]

Scott Allen, the selective use of the quote was really to illustrate what you have so eloquently stated at the start of your second last paragraph above.

The reality of what the professional game analysts look at, and how they interpret and present the data gathered is accurate for the top level. I would be surprised if that level of detail was found at village park or age grade (outside of SG Ball, Howard Matthews [Representative]).

Stats are just another tool that can be used by the coaching staff (or Coach [u15]), but they shouldn't be seen as an absolute. You just need to look at the differences in the stats counts on the various web sites that publish these for Super Rugby and Test matches..., and these are from professionals using industry strength tools and techniques to acquire the stats.

Agree - I know of very few coaches at age level who get into detailed stats.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Inside Shoulder, What are the objectives and expectations of your team (incl parent group)?

a. Rugby is for fun and equal playing time for all as per various Codes of Conduct. Have pre arranged player swaps at the 1/4 time, 1/2 time, and 3/4 time mark. Keep a check of this in a notebook. have a parent or team manager operate the system. Short of injury replacements this works well with Juniors. Seldom will you get a parent group that wholeheartedly endorses this approach. If it is a 15D or lower School team you will "get away" with this. A's to C's parent groups tend to fall into the groups below.

b. Rugby is for winning. Parents and players expect/demand victory. - Run for the hills. You will be inundated with emails, texts, advice from players and parents about how good Oliver All-Star is, and why John Fat-Kidd should be benched to allow Oliver to be the Captain/Openside Flanker/Five eighth. Doesn't matter what you do here, you are on a hiding to nothing. You will not please even if your name is King Job Solomon.

c. We want to get better. Parents and players expect some moderate development. Focus on one or two players each week and keep a bit of a personalised tick sheet on their stats - ie tackles made/missed, good/bad passes made, try assists whatever it is that you want to focus on for that player to improve on in their part of the game. Keep that data and later in the season repeat the exercise. Compare the performance. Give the kid positive feedback. Don't try to analyse the entire team individually every week. You will drown in data gathering.

I am probably preaching to the converted but managing parents will take up almost as much of your time as managing and coaching players. The approach taken will depend largely on expectations.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Inside Shoulder, What are the objectives and expectations of your team (incl parent group)?

a. Rugby is for fun and equal playing time for all as per various Codes of Conduct. Have pre arranged player swaps at the 1/4 time, 1/2 time, and 3/4 time mark. Keep a check of this in a notebook. have a parent or team manager operate the system. Short of injury replacements this works well with Juniors. Seldom will you get a parent group that wholeheartedly endorses this approach. If it is a 15D or lower School team you will "get away" with this. A's to C's parent groups tend to fall into the groups below.

b. Rugby is for winning. Parents and players expect/demand victory. - Run for the hills. You will be inundated with emails, texts, advice from players and parents about how good Oliver All-Star is, and why John Fat-Kidd should be benched to allow Oliver to be the Captain/Openside Flanker/Five eighth. Doesn't matter what you do here, you are on a hiding to nothing. You will not please even if your name is King Job Solomon.

c. We want to get better. Parents and players expect some moderate development. Focus on one or two players each week and keep a bit of a personalised tick sheet on their stats - ie tackles made/missed, good/bad passes made, try assists whatever it is that you want to focus on for that player to improve on in their part of the game. Keep that data and later in the season repeat the exercise. Compare the performance. Give the kid positive feedback. Don't try to analyse the entire team individually every week. You will drown in data gathering.

I am probably preaching to the converted but managing parents will take up almost as much of your time as managing and coaching players. The approach taken will depend largely on expectations.

Not me - I'm just "assisting".
(a) and (c) as far as Im concerned. But if you get them right (b) follows.