Question on laws of game

[Big Jim]

In the recent 6 Nations game Eng v Fra; Eng were awarded a penalty aorund the half way. Toby Flood went off injured and Johnny Wilkinson came on, took the kick and scored a crucial 3 points. I haven't seen a replay of this but I am pretty sure Wilkinson was not on the field when the penalty was awarded. I have not heard anyone comment on this but I was always under the impression that you had to be on the field at the time to take the kick - otherwise it could easily turn into an NFL style situation; especially with the blood bin - you could pull a prop off for 2 mins and bring on a kicker. Can anyone confirm the rules here. I tried looking at the laws but could not find any reference to it.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

In the recent 6 Nations game Eng v Fra; Eng were awarded a penalty aorund the half way. Toby Flood went off injured and Johnny Wilkinson came on, took the kick and scored a crucial 3 points. I haven't seen a replay of this but I am pretty sure Wilkinson was not on the field when the penalty was awarded. I have not heard anyone comment on this but I was always under the impression that you had to be on the field at the time to take the kick - otherwise it could easily turn into an NFL style situation; especially with the blood bin - you could pull a prop off for 2 mins and bring on a kicker. Can anyone confirm the rules here. I tried looking at the laws but could not find any reference to it.

I believe there was a law ruling in the last 3 years and this clarified that the above scenario is OK.

 

[ChargerWA]

Ok, i'll ask the next one.

If a player kicks the ball out over the dead ball line, it come's back to where he kicked it from, unless it is a drop goal attempt.

What is it that decides a drop goal attempt from just an over length kick. I would assume it is the act of dropping the ball on the ground before it is kicked (hence the term drop goal). Which leads me to the question why players don't drop kick the ball when there is danger of them overkicking it into the dead ball area (assuming they have the skill,space and time). Or is it something more arcane, like the referees opinion of their intent when they kicked the ball.

It would be a good way of helping stamp the drop goal out of the game if there was much more risk that the ball would go over the dead ball line and be bought back to where they kicked it from.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Ok, i'll ask the next one.

If a player kicks the ball out over the dead ball line, it come's back to where he kicked it from, unless it is a drop goal attempt.

What is it that decides a drop goal attempt from just an over length kick. I would assume it is the act of dropping the ball on the ground before it is kicked (hence the term drop goal). Which leads me to the question why players don't drop kick the ball when there is danger of them overkicking it into the dead ball area (assuming they have the skill,space and time). Or is it something more arcane, like the referees opinion of their intent when they kicked the ball.

It would be a good way of helping stamp the drop goal out of the game if there was much more risk that the ball would go over the dead ball line and be bought back to where they kicked it from.

Generally players are kicking for the corner when it goes dead or touch-in-goal. I think you would find that a drop goal would be less accurate and get less distance in attepting to do this, so would not be a great option to choose. Also I think you would struggle to argue that this is an attempt at goal.
If you just want to waste time, then you can have shots at a drop goal which ending up going dead. I suspect that if you can easily kick it dead, then you are a good chance to kick an actual drop goal and get the 3 points. If you mis-hit the kick, you will give up possession.

 

[Bruce Ross]

I think you would find that a drop goal would be less accurate and get less distance in attempting to do this, so would not be a great option to choose.

On 22 May 1943 Fred Hughson established the official and recognised world record for a drop kick at 89 yards 11 inches (81.66m) at the halftime interval of a VFL game against South Melbourne at the Brunswick Street Oval. Obviously, E'nE, that was with a Kick-It-To-Me football but I think it demonstrates that considerable distances can be achieved with the drop kick. I also don't think the reason why Aussie Rules footballers switched from the drop kick to the drop punt was to achieve greater accuracy; it was more to do with getting kicks away quickly.

I agree with you that a referee would be unlikely to accept that a drop kick into the corner of the field was an attempt at a field goal.

 

[cyclopath]

Bruce, wouldn't 89 ft be about 28m? Or was it 89 yards, but still the metric conversion doesn't seem right? I'm assuming you meant 89 yards, as it makes no sense otherwise!!

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce, wouldn't 89 ft be about 28m? Or was it 89 yards, but still the metric conversion doesn't seem right? I'm assuming you meant 89 yards, as it makes no sense otherwise!!

Thank you, cyclo. The problem probably arose because in pre-metric times feet and inches always went together, not yards and inches.

 

[Refabit]

I believe there was a law ruling in the last 3 years and this clarified that the above scenario is OK.

Thats correct. It was clarified by IRB in 2007 foolowing a request by Ireland.
Can't see it open to real abuse via blood-bin unless you are playing for Harlequins and they bring Dean Richards back.

 

[Scott Allen]

The ARU permits the State unions to allow rolling substitutions (interchange) in club rugby competitions in Australia. One of the conditions for rolling substitutions is:

"Any substitute who takes the field of play immediately following the awarding of a penalty kick to his team or after a try has been scored shall not be permitted to kick at goal until after the relevant kick has been taken."

 

[Refabit]

The ARU permits the State unions to allow rolling substitutions (interchange) in club rugby competitions in Australia. One of the conditions for rolling substitutions is:

"Any substitute who takes the field of play immediately following the awarding of a penalty kick to his team or after a try has been scored shall not be permitted to kick at goal until after the relevant kick has been taken."

Another one of those where there's 1 rule for club rugby and another for Tests.

 

[matty_k]

Something I've never been sure about the tackle.

After you have tackled the player you must release them. Do you then have to get back on side to have a go at the ball? Can you just get up where you are and try to win the ball?

 

[Tordah]

Something I've never been sure about the tackle.

After you have tackled the player you must release them. Do you then have to get back on side to have a go at the ball? Can you just get up where you are and try to win the ball?

I suppose you mean the Horwill turnovers. As soon as a ruck is formed over the ball, the offside line comes into play, so it doesn't matter whether you're the tackler or not. I think Horwill was pretty lucky with that steal that led to the Ioane try, but I'm no ref.

 

[Thomas]

Something I've never been sure about the tackle.

After you have tackled the player you must release them. Do you then have to get back on side to have a go at the ball? Can you just get up where you are and try to win the ball?

You must release the player (So it's evident to the ref, the more obvious the better) then you can do whatever if it is not a ruck, if it is a ruck you can not touch the ball! but what you can do is stand up and clear an opposition player out by driving over the ball

 

[matty_k]

thanks

 

[ACT Crusader]

The tackler has "rights" meaning that a ref will give the tackler the opportunity to get to his feet and play to get the ball.

However when a ruck is formed/called, the tackler no longer can play the ball with his hands and in most occasions the tackler is blown off his feet anyway so will have to rejoin from an onside position.

 

[qwerty51]

Something I've never confirmed, if a ball is taken back into the 22 and is kicked out on the full, is the lineout on the 22 or from where it was kicked?

 

[Nusadan]

Lineout is where it was kicked from...

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Something I've never been sure about the tackle.

After you have tackled the player you must release them. Do you then have to get back on side to have a go at the ball? Can you just get up where you are and try to win the ball?

It remains a "tackle" until the ruck forms and the tackler is allowed to enter the tackle from any direction (ie not through the gate) once he releases the tackled player and gets back to his feet. Once the ruck is formed, there are off-side lines and even the tackler must enter from the hindmost feet or through the gate or whaterver terminology you like.
McCaw has always been a master at this and Horwill executed it brilliantly last night. Interestingly we don't see as much of it as we used to as it has become a very low percentage option under the 2010-2011 law interpretations. This is because the ruck is almost always formed by the time the tackler correctly releases and gets to his feet.

 

[matty_k]

I was speaking about before the ruck had formed. So thanks for the clarification.

 

[Lee Grant]

There is one wrinkle to all this. If the tackler has his hands on the ball legally before the ruck has formed (that is, he has released the tackled player, then got to his feet), he may keep his hands on the ball after it has formed.

That goes for a team mate of the tackled player who had his hands on the ball before the ruck formed also.

This was Ruling No. 4 in 2009 issued May 2009 because the law did not seem to address the situation adequately.