Playing 13 under Deans

[fatprop]

I was trying to work out which players have actually succeeded playing 13 for the Wobs under Deans in attack.

I couldn't think of any, apart from one run from AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) off a set piece and all have really had very limited attack success

Now, is this because they are all crap? I don't think so ............

So far the ball is attacking closer in at the 10/12 channel or trying to go around the edge.

The last time we consistently attacked down that channel was Mortlock under Jones, since then we have kept the ball closer to the forwards until we get that overlap.

So what would be the best characteristics for a 13 at the moment?

To be able to hold up his channel in defence
To clean out effectively for the 12/backrower inside him

?

?

Discuss .......................

 

[MrTimms]

top point mate.

I think you might be onto something. That is why the McCabe/Fainga'a pairing is probably the best, we just need them to be defensive no go zones.

 

[fatprop]

and that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Horne are being considered as well, all are very good, aggressive defenders

 

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

I am a massive fan of Fainga'a after Saturday night. It's not that AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) has done anything wrong, it's just he seems to be a better player.

 

[Scotty]

My personal opinion is that the role of 13 is changing. I think the old 2nd 5/8 from the kiwis should now be considered at 13, rather than at 12. Big bosher at 12, more creative player at 13.

One of the biggest successes at 13 from an attacking point of view was actually Giteau in the second half vs the Boks in Perth a few years ago. Cooper came on and Giteau ran wider in the 13 channel, and often in the 2nd wave. He looked fantastic with some extra space and ability to use his short passing game to set up the wings and FB.

It depends if we see our fullback as that creative outside player, or our 13. With Beale at FB, we probably don't need a creative 13, but if we had another FB, then we would need one.

Horne will be the man in the future. Strong defender with a good pass and running good lines. Passing is what has been missing from our 13s under Deans.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think it's a combination of two things. Mortlock was one of the great Wallabies and was a great crash ball runner so it was logical that we attacked at 13 frequently when he was at his best.

I also think that under Deans, our style has shifted more towards the New Zealand first five/second five style (particularly when Berrick is at 12).

 

[Scarfman]

Great point fp.

In all of Bob Dwyer's posts, I reckon the thing he is most right about is that our backline doesn't ask questions of the defence. We tend to pass the pass all the way to the sideline without doing so. We need straight runners (and offloaders) and we are slowing moving in that direction.

The other thing we don't do much of is run plays. Or they are very simple, inside moves. Maybe Nuci can help in this area? He oversaw the Brumbies when they ran a backline move at every set piece.

 

[EVERYFWDTHINKTHEYREA6OR7]

My personal opinion is that the role of 13 is changing. I think the old 2nd 5/8 from the kiwis should now be considered at 13, rather than at 12. Big bosher at 12, more creative player at 13.

One of the biggest successes at 13 from an attacking point of view was actually Giteau in the second half vs the Boks in Perth a few years ago. Cooper came on and Giteau ran wider in the 13 channel, and often in the 2nd wave. He looked fantastic with some extra space and ability to use his short passing game to set up the wings and FB.

It depends if we see our fullback as that creative outside player, or our 13. With Beale at FB, we probably don't need a creative 13, but if we had another FB, then we would need one.

Horne will be the man in the future. Strong defender with a good pass and running good lines. Passing is what has been missing from our 13s under Deans.

Isn't a great problem to have so many good players to choose from? Horne maybe the way forward here. I just keep coming back to when Herbert played outside centre. Great defender, attacker and was a good ball player as well.

 

[Gnostic]

Many people see Mortlock as a crash baller and fail to look at the angles he ran. So many times he ran the angle and went through without a finger laid on him. Yes he could and would crash it up but his effectiveness at 13 wasn't due to this and indeed when he played 12 he was much less effective.

I agree with FP the Wallabies have not effectively attacked in the 13 channel since Morty, but name for me a dominant 13 in Australia apart from Mortlock, even at Super level. Cross - I don't think so, serviceable/reliable at best, Horne - potential unrealised ATM, Turner/Ioane/Hynes/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - wingers converted and whilst they haven't let anybody down they cannot be caled dominant 13s even at Super level. Inman - Potential only ATM. Carter - better than Cross but still doesn't offer much more and his positional play can be bad.

Fainga'a is the closest the Wallabies have come to playing a genuine 13 in the position since Mortlock, is it any wonder that he performed better in the position than the "utilities"?

 

[daz]

It used to be a particular thrill watching Stirling smash and dance his way through the defensive line, with the pill tucked under his wing. For a short period of time, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) took that role with some success.

I agree that now we are going through 10 phases of pick-and-go with flat forwards and attempting to have the opposition line commit numbers at the breakdown, then flinging the ball out wide hoping to capitalise on a gap.

By hell I'd love to see guys like Samo, Higgers, McCabe, Elsom, etc ask a few more questions of the opposition at a flat out smash and bash pace. I was encouraged to see a bit of "Stirling" last weekend, that's for sure.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Fainga'a is the closest the Wallabies have come to playing a genuine 13 in the position since Mortlock, is it any wonder that he performed better in the position than the "utilities"?

Good effort in his first year as a 13. McCabe is one you didn't mention but I think could develop into a good 13 also.

 

[fatprop]

As I said, I don't see any of them as being "effective" in attack because that attack channel just isn't being used.

The inside channel is being used, but off Cooper drifting to the blind side winger or Beale.

Faainga is clearly the best defender, but also obviously the worst attacker.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) & Horne are better attackers with Horne being less selfish.

It is an interesting decision for Deans gong forward.

I expected Cooper to be throwing more flat cutouts on the gain line by now (Larkham mode) across the face of multiple runners on good angles, but that doesn't seem to be part of the game plan.

Instead, just like the All Blacks, we now look to beat a defender one on one or wait for an overlap.

The challenge is with the good defensive sides like the all Blacks they drift against that overlap

 

[daz]

The challenge is with the good defensive sides like the all Blacks they drift against that overlap

We saw that last weekend. Several times the Wobs threw some really clean cutouts and changed running angles at speed with some decent offloads, but nearly every time, the Darkness were there waiting.

AB's are a good defensive side, no doubt, but I'm wary that the Wobs are perhaps a bit too predictable in attack.

 

[Scott Allen]

The other thing we don't do much of is run plays. Or they are very simple, inside moves.

I think you're right Scarfy - when was the last time we saw a real first phase play?

Remember Matt Giteau's try in the game against England in Sydney last year when Ioane sliced through untouched - the Wallabies tried that same move in Durban against the Boks this year but got it badly wrong and were penalised for obstruction.

I'm struggling to remember any other first phase plays they've tried in 2011 and #13 was more often than not a focus of 1st phase plays.

To be less predictable we need more of these plays - just go with the ones the Reds used - most of the players are in place, just got to teach McCabe, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Beale from Saturday's team.

 

[Scotty]

Maybe we are leaving them up our sleeve for the WC?

 

[Scotty]

Watching the highlights of the 84 slam the other night it really struck me how good a passing game Andrew Slack had. Several times he was able to put the ball on the chest of the fullback or wing from 15m and while running at full pace. It made me starting thinking about when was the last 13 we had that could do that?

I don't reckon there has been one since Jason Little. Rob Horne is the closest thing we've had to Little since, well, Little. Hope he can stay uninjured for the future, but I don't think he should be picked in the top XV for the RWC.

 

[Gnostic]

On the weekend our Lineout was rubbish so no chance of a first phase play from there, and the scrum was under pressure so not really a lauching pad there either, though in years past the Wicks didn't need a dominant platform in either set peice to mount first phase attack.

This lack of First phase set peice may be the reason why there is such a requirement for X players to break the line.

I do not prescribe to the line of thought that defences are so good now that a well executed set move cannot succeed. In fact I am of the opposite thought, a thorough analysis of the defensive patterns of a side lends itself to the creation of set moves as many sides use such a structured defence a well worked move can use their structure against them.

 

[wamberal]

I always think of an outside centre as being primarily a very fast player who can make an outside linebreak. These days, of course, the whole defensive structure is much tighter, and there is very little opportunity for the 13 to go outside.

We would all agree that 13 is the most difficult backline position in defense - so I suppose it makes sense to look for players who are strong, clever, defenders, and who are good at passing to supports and also good at holding the ball in a tackle. I would still be looking for a player who can do all this, and also is a quick, elusive runner. Maybe Horne.

 

[Torn Hammy]

For a 13 to do well you need the 12 to be running straight and continually engaging the attention of the slide defence, much in the way Genia's snipes give Cooper that little extra time and space. With this straight running the 13 can attack his opponent on both inside and outside channels. With Deans selecting Giteau at 12, he angled the attack back towards the forwards or he tried to beat his man on the outside, thus making life hard for his 13.

The best performance at 13 I saw this year was Horne playing outside a straight running Carter against the Rebels. For these reasons I think our best centre pairing is Finger and Horne.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

The best performance at 13 I saw this year was Horne playing outside a straight running Carter against the Rebels. For these reasons I think our best centre pairing is Finger and Horne.

Hard to find a 13 who didn't look good against the Rebels..