NSW AAGPS Rugby 2011

[random2]

I cant understand why they wont make a combined GPS & CAS comp with two tiers. The bottom two are relegated and the top two from the 2nd tier are promoted. It would make for a much more exciting competition and a lot closer games for schools like Grammer, High, Cranebrook etc

I know in the 16s Shore are weak and would most likely be dropped from a top tier comp. But then there 15s, who would be the team to play next year are very strong and would have a good chance at winning the top tier comp, but due to the poor results the previous year would be forced to play in the second comp. If they found a way to work all that out then i think it would work, but if not it could never happen.

 

[northman91]

I know in the 16s Shore are weak and would most likely be dropped from a top tier comp. But then there 15s, who would be the team to play next year are very strong and would have a good chance at winning the top tier comp, but due to the poor results the previous year would be forced to play in the second comp. If they found a way to work all that out then i think it would work, but if not it could never happen.

Same goes with CAS, in 2009 Barker only one a couple of games whereas in 2010 they won 10/10 and 17/17 for the whole season and also with Trinity this year winning 10/10 when they are usually a weak side. Also Newingtons resurgence as a "Rugby School" has only come in the last 2 years, before that they were easy beats and would never challenge for the title. Grammar and High will never be strong again if they dont change the enrolment policies and allow student of all academic levels to come to their school. A two-tier competition wont work and will never happen. If a school is interested in being crowned the best in NSW then they should compete in the Waratah Shield.

 

[Snort]

I agree that the logical way to approach this would be for the schools (and I don't mean only CAS and GPS - there are good ISA schools too) to sit down and replan the competition. It ought to be possible to create three tiers of competition which ensures that schools are evenly matched. Every respect is due to Grammar's history, but who benefits when Scots wallops them 95-5?

It would be complicated and messy, but it could be done. The complexity would be in matching junior teams, where the larger schools need to find opponents for many more teams than some others. But this is a problem that already exists within the current structure. I wouldn't want to see promotion and relegation, because that would encourage team stacking and other undesirable behaviours, but rather I'd make the tiers subject to periodic review.

It won't happen, though, partly because the strong schools have a vested interest in maintaining the current system, partly because old boys (who help schools with funding) would go beserk and partly because of the dead hand of tradition.

 

[Snort]

This is my take on it:

A number of things have happened that have had an impact on Joeys Rugby and as a result, they are not as dominant now, and possibly won't ever return to their dominance of old.

Firstly - the competition being made strictly U18 has had a big impact on a number of schools, but especially Joeys. In days gone by (and i'm talking 80s and 90s) it was common for boys to repeat Yr 12 so they could play another year of 1st XV and get another shot at GPS glory. This meant that there used to be a number of 'older' players playing 1st XV rugby. This can no longer happen and it has had an impact.

This wasn't exclusively a Joeys issue, of course. In particular, when the late "Jika" Travers was Headmaster at Shore, he always wanted his school captain to be someone repeating Year 12. And of course that person usually used to be a rugby player. I think there was a period of about a decade when Michael Hawker was the only Shore school captain on his first time in Year 12.

 

[driftdefence]

Agree entirely but not necessarily as complex as you may think. Junior club rugby have for years (politics notwithstanding!) been able to run a 14 round comp. in age groups from U10 to opens with multiple grades in each age group and can produce a draw in early May for the remainder of the season?! - and all this done by volunteers, balancing almost 100% council run grounds over which they have little or no control.

For the princely sum of say $110/season (give or take, depending on which Club you play for), your child can play 14 rounds of competitive, club rugby on mostly very good, full sized ovals against a wide variety of district teams and if they're lucky, add an extra 1-3 games for semis and finals. The majority of field are full sized, all are roped on both sides and the vast majority of games have two badged touch judges.

Now let's compare that with the GPS ........ For a s*@#tload more $$$$$, your privileged offspring can look forward to 3 or 4 meaningless trial games, 5 serious competition games, a week by week draw issued just 2-3 days before the game each week, playing on mostly average grounds (many 3/4 sized in the 13's,14's & 15's), grounds that are often concertinaed hard up against each other with no Ground Marshall or sideline ropes and a couple of unbadged school kids running touch for the most part (with the exception of the higher opens teams and possibly the 16A's) - pretty amateur for your big bucks. Is it any wonder so many kids want to play club rugby?

If the club rugby volunteers can do this year in, year out, why then can't those inhabitants of the hallowed halls of the AAGPS (who are paid considerably more, I'm guessing) do it for what is at best a seven round comp. which changes little from year to year? The old adage must be true then - the more you pay, the less you get!!

Wake up AAGPS - your comp. stinks and the gravy train is coming into the station. This is no longer the premier junior rugby comp. in Sydney. The boys (and their long sufferring fee paying parents) deserve better - a whole lot better. It is time for a broom through the AAGPS.

 

[Joe Mac]

I don't think it is in anyway complex. I'm not saying that each age group be in different tier's; the school as a whole would play in either division 1 or division two depending on their 1st XV. It's only the bottom two teams that are being relegated/promoted so schools like Knox, View, Joey's and Kings would rarely if ever be demoted to 2nd division. It would however, mean that Aloys, Cranebrook, Grammar would be more evenly matched in Div 2 while still having the chance to be promotes when they have strong grades coming through...

Seems extremely simple to me...

 

[barbarian]

Driftdefence - What a load of uninformed rubbish.

I don't know if you are aware of this, but people don't pay 'big bucks' to GPS schools to play rugby. They are actually schools, and see rugby as an extra-curricular activity rather than their sole purpose for existence. The 'amatuer' nature of it reflects this, and frankly I like it that way.

I don't want or need badged Touch Judges on the 14Es. Give kids a chance to have a go and learn, this is a school activity after all. Nor do I need ground marshalls, as there are plenty of teachers and staff around to supervise.

This is the problem with certain parents and unattached observers. They think that GPS Schools solely exist to play rugby, and the AAGPS itself should act like the ARU or the AFL. This couldn't be further from the truth. They are educational institutions, and see sport as a means of educating and developing their students. It is secondary to the end goal of producing great men. I don't want that to change.


.

 

[lincoln]

This wasn't exclusively a Joeys issue, of course. In particular, when the late "Jika" Travers was Headmaster at Shore, he always wanted his school captain to be someone repeating Year 12. And of course that person usually used to be a rugby player. I think there was a period of about a decade when Michael Hawker was the only Shore school captain on his first time in Year 12.

IIRC Hawker repeated - although the year before him was Creer who was in his first year of Yr12. Mike's younger brother was however captain in his only year 12.

 

[Man on the hill]

...and training more than anyone else strikes me as a positive quality, not one to be deplored), Joeys has had a hugely successful rugby history ...

It's well known - the reason Joeys did / do so much training was to tire out all the boarders so they couldn't get upto any immoral hijinx after lights out in the dormitory!

 

[Man on the hill]

For the princely sum of say $110/season (give or take, depending on which Club you play for), your child can play 14 rounds of competitive, club rugby on mostly very good, full sized ovals against a wide variety of district teams and if they're lucky, add an extra 1-3 games for semis and finals. The majority of field are full sized, all are roped on both sides and the vast majority of games have two badged touch judges.

One very fundamental problem with this style of competition - very rarely do clubs get to play against each other across the ages and in fact it’s a rarity for a club to play at the same ground as another team of its own colour when they are away! Even when playing at home – the likelihood fo the 14s backing up for the 15s is remote.
Ask any club level organiser - they are witnessing teams becoming more like franchise holders than spirited members of the same club. Engagement with eh club at large (as opposed to within their team boundaries) is reducing.

 

[proteinshakes]

Shore 16A's went down to Kings (who were undefeated if not mistaken?) 20-12 at Kings last Saturday in a tight match. Based on that result they are definitely not weak or deserving of being dropped in a top tier comp.

 

[CTPE]

Wake up AAGPS - your comp. stinks and the gravy train is coming into the station. This is no longer the premier junior rugby comp. in Sydney. The boys (and their long sufferring fee paying parents) deserve better - a whole lot better. It is time for a broom through the AAGPS.

Interesting statement... if only Schools Championships results at both U16s and Opens levels (CHS, CAS,GPS, ISA, CCC, ACIES etc) substantiated your assertions. Oh they don't....

 

[Dingdong]

Shore 16A's went down to Kings (who were undefeated if not mistaken?) 20-12 at Kings last Saturday in a tight match. Based on that result they are definitely not weak or deserving of being dropped in a top tier comp.

Totally agree. I saw that game and thought Shore's defense was outstanding. King's spent most of the game camped in Shore's 22, only to be denied points time and time again. In fact, in both games between these 2 teams this year , the result wasn't decided until late in the game. There are more than enough quality players in the Shore 16's team to achieve on field sucess over the next couple of years.

 

[DD678]

As Smartchild said... Who cares. The 1st and 2nd XV competitions are the only ones that there is a trophy for!

In regard to another school that matches their standards in regard to win lose, you could counter that by saying name another school that puts as much emphasis on training especially in the junior years. Joeys has 3 field training sessions per week minimum from 13s upwards... I know of school 1st XV sides who until recently did less than that!

Joeys are also guilty of plenty of unsavoury practices in their lower teams - putting on As players in other lower grades etc just so they can win, and before anyone fires up and says rubbish i have seen it happen too many times with my own eyes.

Doesn't matter how you sugar coat it - Joeys are on the slide at the top end and it may be a while before they win another 1st XV premiership.

Join Date
Aug 2011
Posts
1
this is true that 1st & 2nd XV are the only ones that there is a trophy, and who has won the most?

it may be true that they put A's players in the lower ranks but i have seen this happen in many other GPS schools

 

[Flavor Flav]

Wouldnt be a Joeys XV team without a brother as coach

I have heard along the grape vine that Barkell the coach of Sydney U16's might be in their sights. Supposedly he was instrumental in bringing some recruits to Trinity.

 

[Lee Grant]

This is my take on it:

A number of things have happened that have had an impact on Joeys Rugby and as a result, they are not as dominant now, and possibly won't ever return to their dominance of old.


Secondly - the Joeys demographic has changed significantly in the last few years (as it has at other schools) and with the move away from 100% boarding they no longer have the cream of the kids that they used to. Their numbers are smaller than some of the other schools

Thirdly - other schools, in an attempt to match the success of Joeys, have put much more emphasis on their rugby programmes.

Kings, New and Scots all have dedicated Directors of Rugby who do very little/no teaching, and get big $s - they are solely there to improve the standard of the rugby programme and the 1st XV.

Fourthly - several schools (Kings, Newington and Scots) have become very aggressive in their quest for GPS Rugby premierships. Despite there being clear GPS byelaws relating to @cholarships they blatantly ignore them. This results in their 1st XV teams being MUCH better than they would normally/used to be, and therefore much harder to beat - therefore Joeys doesn't win like they used to.

Lastly and perhaps most controversially, but could it be time for some new coaching blood at Joeys? How long has Brth Boyd been at the helm? An excellent coach who has had unrivalled success, but is he up to date with the current trends and tactics?

Comment

Secondly - yeah Joeys are struggling with actual numbers of boys at the school. Part of that is that Joeys always had a large portion of their boys from the country and they have been doing it tough in the bush for a long time. Hence the need for day boys to make up the numbers and as the proportion of boarders gets diluted, so do other things.

Thirdly - very good points and you did it without using the "S" word.

Fourthly - Joeys used to have the advantage when it was 100% boarding that parents would want their lads to board for years 11 and 12 so that they could get the best chance for their HSC. We got some very good rugby players out of that but now we can't compete with the practices you mentioned and we lose them before we get them.

What has gotten up my nose - though not so much this year, is the big difference between the standards of the Ones teams of some schools compared to the Twos, year in, year out.

Lastly - can't comment but your "Thirdly" remark is a part of that. Joeys, probably the most knockabout school in the GPS and maybe also the cheapest if you take out the boarding premium, can't compete, and is not able to hire outsiders for such positions.


The playing field has been has been well and truly levelled

 

[baldingwingforward]

What has gotten up my nose - though not so much this year, is the big difference between the standards of the Ones teams of some schools compared to the Twos, year in, year out.

Lee - again being careful not to mention the "s" word, but if enough "new" players decide to go to a school, it stands to reason that their 2nd team will also get much stronger. I think the reason the difference between 1s and 2s was less this year than in previous is largely due to the bigger influx of players in the top teams...

 

[Dingdong]

This is my take on it:

Fourthly - several schools (Kings, Newington and Scots) have become very aggressive in their quest for GPS Rugby premierships. Despite there being clear GPS byelaws relating to @cholarships they blatantly ignore them. This results in their 1st XV teams being MUCH better than they would normally/used to be, and therefore much harder to beat - therefore Joeys doesn't win like they used to.

Lastly and perhaps most controversially, but could it be time for some new coaching blood at Joeys? How long has Brth Boyd been at the helm? An excellent coach who has had unrivalled success, but is he up to date with the current trends and tactics?

You are kidding, right ? In the 16's age group alone, I can think of 4 NSW or NSW Country players "NEW" to the school. Lets be fair dinkum !

 

[dermo]

You are kidding, right ? In the 16's age group alone, I can think of 4 NSW or NSW Country players "NEW" to the school. Lets be fair dinkum !

Names?

 

[random2]

You are kidding, right ? In the 16's age group alone, I can think of 4 NSW or NSW Country players "NEW" to the school. Lets be fair dinkum !

Guessing your talking about Nic Penisi, Matt Sandell and Jono Hardy
Penisi is on a scholarship. And while people can be a bit suss that the NSW captian gets a scholarship i can tell you he is actaully very very smart, 2nd in the year i believe and his rugby is just a bonus. Sandell has a brother in year 12 and was always coming to Joeys. Dont know about Hardy though