NSW AAGPS 2018

[Quick Hands]

The other non selective GPS schools have terrible academics.


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Not as bad as you might imagine when, for example, over 25% of Newington's Year 12 boys do the IB as opposed to the HSC and that the vast majority of that 25% are academic high achievers.

80% of the Newington IB cohort receive an ATAR of 90 plus. If the Sydney Morning Herald wasn't so lazy, they'd include these results in their "league tables," as I'm sure that many people don't factor this into their thinking and thus come to the same incorrect conclusion as you.

https://www.newington.nsw.edu.au/stanmore/latest-results-ib/

 

[Joker]

The other non selective GPS schools have terrible academics.
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Easy there Pirate. Define terrible?

It makes me sick each year to hear selective schools gloating how amazing they are when they have kids who are 92% and bring them up 98%. The talent was there already. The kids were motivated. The tutors had been working with them already to get them into the schools. The family were driving them hard. These schools already had an "All Black" enrolling

Schools like Joeys, Newington and even Scots take kids who are 30% with and bring them up to 60+%. These kids are often unmotivated, have learning issues, come from unsupported homes and have little or no confidence. The final result that these kids achieve may does pale in comparison (score wise) to the selective school, but, the improvement the non-selective school achieves is greater than that achieved by a selective school. Good teachers work at selective schools. Exceptional teachers chose to work at non-selective. That is were the real achievement lays. Making kids better than what they think they can be.

The selective schools takes "All Blacks" still turn out "All Blacks"
The non-selective schools turns out kids who can compete with confidence in the field they wish to pursue.
And yes...sometimes they beat "All Black" kids.

 

[One eyed pirate]

I understand what you saying about the IB and agree the SMH ranking system is a poor measure. I had a girl at Ravenswood and that school said the same thing. The truth is when you adjust for the smarter IB kids, Newington still ranks low. It simply depends on what you think acceptable academics is but Im sorry to say the facts are that Newington ranks low of the GPS schools even when you adjust for IB.

 

[WLF]

Easy there Pirate. Define terrible?

It makes me sick each year to hear selective schools gloating how amazing they are when they have kids who are 92% and bring them up 98%. The talent was there already. The kids were motivated. The tutors had been working with them already to get them into the schools. The family were driving them hard. These schools already had an "All Black" enrolling

Schools like Joeys, Newington and even Scots take kids who are 30% with and bring them up to 60+%. These kids are often unmotivated, have learning issues, come from unsupported homes and have little or no confidence. The final result that these kids achieve may does pale in comparison (score wise) to the selective school, but, the improvement the non-selective school achieves is greater than that achieved by a selective school. Good teachers work at selective schools. Exceptional teachers chose to work at non-selective. That is were the real achievement lays. Making kids better than what they think they can be.

The selective schools takes "All Blacks" still turn out "All Blacks"
The non-selective schools turns out kids who can compete with confidence in the field they wish to pursue.
And yes.sometimes they beat "All Black" kids.

Spot on Joker,

Academia is important but not by itself, a well rounded person with good people skills and a sense of team, I will take any day.
Not sure how well these selective schools do on this front.

 

[One eyed pirate]

Joker, I agree. I'm talking about the non selective GPS schools. I think its great that Joeys and other schools take kids of all academic standards but the fact is that each year group performs in the HSC as a group. So the academic results of the lower standard kids are dragging down the results of the higher standard kids at schools like Joeys. Some parents might be ok with that. My view is that given these schools are very expensive, if you have a smart child, especially if they are not good at sport, you should strongly consider sending them to one of the higher ranked academic schools, even if that means not going to 'daddy's school'. For me, the academic results of Joeys, View, Newington, Trinity, Scots, Kings up until recently, and many other expensive schools is just not good enough.

 

[Joker]

Thank you Pirate for your clarification.

In short, you should always send your child to a school that matches their desires and ability. The academic focus though is on a child NOT the cohort. Just because a Joeys cohort (which I can speak of with confidence) may score "poorly" based on the barometer of public opinion, does not make it "good enough". Look at the long term value of the high school education. If you want to go to school with the solo purpose of getting a high ATAR, then ANY school will do. There are kids topping the state from non-selective schools all over. Even Joeys had a boy who came equal first in the state in 2017.

BUT

If you want more than just books, high pressure, tutor groups, study sessions, isolation, coaching colleges, HSC boot camps then you can also try non-selective schools. Their aim NOT just for achieving the best academic outcome for an individual but provide an all-round experience. My son scored mid 90's in his HSC. Wonderful. We were happy. Could he done more if he went North Sydney Boys (which he could have)? Maybe.But at Joeys he did the following.

Drama/Musical productions (working with kids from all years)
Rugby playing and junior coaching
cricket/water-polo (team sports)
Junior peer tutoring in French and Maths (service)
Religious participation (service)
Marist Sony Camp (www.joeys.org/blog/2015/03/02/marist-sony-holiday-camp-2014/) Only Joeys do these.
Philippines immersion camp (www.joeys.org/blog/2015/06/07/philippines-immersion/)

My son was provided with the same academic rigor he would have gotten at a selective school, but we choose a non-selective school because it provided what education should be about.....an all-round student. My son did hit the books but as well sang/danced/acted a bit/ kicked a ball/ played in a team/ cared for a disabled child, put others less fortunate than himself first while living in 3rd world conditions.

Schools who have a narrow focus are doomed to produce narrow people.

 

[formerflanker]

For me, the academic results of Joeys, View, Newington, Trinity, Scots, Kings up until recently, and many other expensive schools is just not good enough.

You are assuming that the value of "the old school tie" has tanked.
(I'm not able to make a judgement on that.)

 

[SonnyDillWilliams]

Schools who have a narrow focus are doomed to produce narrow people.

Joker, I already knew you were a funny bastard ... but I also see you have a serious side ... and you know what I reckon you are absolutely right ...your son will no doubt be growing into a fine man

... and while there is no right or wrong in some things ... when it comes to a person, being narrowly focussed it is invariably problematic

reminds me of a couple of quote

"An angry mind is a narrow mind"

"The most learned are often the most narrow minded" William Hazlitt

 

[SonnyDillWilliams]

back to the footy ... I smell an upset .. tipping Joeys to win in a boil over ... despite the fact that Kings should on paper win this

just a shame I cannot be in 2 places at once ... Sidesteppa?

 

[Up the Guts]

back to the footy . I smell an upset .. tipping Joeys to win in a boil over . despite the fact that Kings should on paper win this

just a shame I cannot be in 2 places at once . Sidesteppa?

The backline matchup will be one to savour. Obviously a lot of big ticket names for both sides but young Penisini in the midfield is a real powerhouse for King's and creates space for Connolly and Sua'ali'i outside him.

 

[Armchair Selector]

Joeys V Kings will be a Grand Final for both teams. Whoever loses most likely will finish 3rd. 3 fascinating Saturdays of Rugby ahead to round out the GPS Competition.

Agree with UTG re match ups. Hopefully someone posts the match on Youtube. Based on NSW I, II or Combined States Selection, there are a number of players who will be squaring off who a few weeks ago were team mates!

Forwards: Heaven (J) V Holz (K) both NSW II, Bokenham (J) NSW I V Cale (K) and Mitchell (K) both GPS 2
Backs: Gibbs (J) CS V Minogue (K) NSW II, Scolari (J) NSW II V Sua'ali'i (K) CS, Creagh (J) NSW II V Connolly NSW I

A Joeys V Kings game is special. Both play a no nonsense style and work as a XV rather than relying on individuals. Also this is the last home game for Joeys this year so they will want to send off their class of 2018 with a win.

Cant wait to see two quality forward packs go at each other and two quality back lines finish the hard work.

 

[Black & White]

Easy there Pirate. Define terrible?

It makes me sick each year to hear selective schools gloating how amazing they are when they have kids who are 92% and bring them up 98%. The talent was there already. The kids were motivated. The tutors had been working with them already to get them into the schools. The family were driving them hard. These schools already had an "All Black" enrolling

Schools like Joeys, Newington and even Scots take kids who are 30% with and bring them up to 60+%. These kids are often unmotivated, have learning issues, come from unsupported homes and have little or no confidence. The final result that these kids achieve may does pale in comparison (score wise) to the selective school, but, the improvement the non-selective school achieves is greater than that achieved by a selective school. Good teachers work at selective schools. Exceptional teachers chose to work at non-selective. That is were the real achievement lays. Making kids better than what they think they can be.

The selective schools takes "All Blacks" still turn out "All Blacks"
The non-selective schools turns out kids who can compete with confidence in the field they wish to pursue.
And yes.sometimes they beat "All Black" kids.

Well said , Joker
About decade ago a indigenous student arrived at Joeys in year 9, he was illiterate. But with professional care and excellent teaching, this young man was able to turn his life around courtesy of Joeys. At the end of year 12, he matriculate to Sydney University. Where he studied History and Education to become a History Teacher.

He has appeared on the ABC a number of times and is a marvellous representative of his people. To those schools obsessed with an academic image, I say to you, look at what Joeys did for this young man and tell me, which school made the greater contribution to a just and fair Australian nation. Your souless, self-serving pursuit of academic achievement and elitism or a school that is inclusive, caring, and multi-cultural. If not for Joeys, this young man might otherwise be on social security, unemployed and facing a future without hope.

A fair measure of the effectiveness of education and teaching is what was the student's level of achievement when he arrived at the school. What was his achievement level when left the school. In the case of this student, his education at Joeys was an outstanding success story.

As for academic selective schools, whether they be state or private, you could put a well behaved monkey in front of some of your classes and still get great results.

 

[Joker]

Well said , Joker
About decade ago a indigenous student arrived at Joeys in year 9, he was illiterate. But with professional care and excellent teaching, this young man was able to turn his life around courtesy of Joeys. At the end of year 12, he matriculate to Sydney University. Where he studied History and Education to become a History Teacher.

I know this young man very well. He now works out west in NSW teaching kids in areas that need inspiration and dedication. He continues to use the gifts he received at Joeys to help others where it is most needed, in the classroom.

 

[Joker]

Well done Joeys and Kings. Hope people here can "buy a bale"
Put me down for two!

SATURDAY 4 AUGUST 2018
ST JOSEPH'S COLLEGE No 1, AUGUSTINE ST, HUNTERS HILL

1st XV - 3.15pm
2nd XV - 2.00pm

Joeys and King’s have a long tradition of schoolboy sport and membership of the AAGPS. They are two of Australia's largest and longest serving boarding schools, with their roots embedded in regional NSW.

On Saturday, Joeys and King's unite to not only enjoy spirited competition between our great schools, but to raise much needed funds for Rural Aid Australia. In the lead up to game day, students, Old Boys, and parents of both schools are asked to come together and donate for those in drought stricken areas.

Your Donation
The joint Joeys and King’s initiative will see 100% of all donations going to Rural Aid Australia. These funds will provide urgent aid for drought affected farmers. To make your donation, click the button below and select Rural Aid Australia - Buy a Bale from the link below.


https://www.joeys.org/donate/

 

[Gotheboys]

Out of interest does anyone know who is winning the GPS 15As competition at this stage?

 

[Crackerjack]

Joeys V Kings will be a Grand Final for both teams. Whoever loses most likely will finish 3rd. 3 fascinating Saturdays of Rugby ahead to round out the GPS Competition.


A Joeys V Kings game is special. Both play a no nonsense style and work as a XV rather than relying on individuals. Also this is the last home game for Joeys this year so they will want to send off their class of 2018 with a win.

Cant wait to see two quality forward packs go at each other and two quality back lines finish the hard work.

As you say ACS, a “Grand Final” of sorts coming up!

But with three undefeated teams left, three matches still to play, and all three teams to play each other in amongst those three remaining matches, for the 2018 GPS Title chocolates, Joeys v Kings at Hunters Hill on Saturday, is just the first of 3 consecutive “Grand Final” weekends.

“GF” 2 will be Scots v Joeys in Round 4, 11/8.

The third (and final) “GF” will be Kings v Scots in Round 5, 18/8.

Each ‘contender’ has one home game and one away game against the other two (so-far) undefeated contenders. Joeys and Scots will do their “GF’s” on back-to-back weekends, amplifying any injuries to the shortest possible turnaround. Joeys and Scots also play their home “GF” first; their away “GF” second.

Kings is the only one of the three ‘contenders’ to play their final “GF” at home, which will be some advantage; and the only one with a ‘break’ in between their “GF’s”, tho’ the theoretical advantage of that might be quite nebulous given their opponents on the week’s “break” is Newington! After last Saturday at HH, if anyone at Kings seriously considers an away game at Stanmore to be some kind of a ‘break’, needs counselling!

Agree ACS that whoever loses this Saturday, does put themselves behind the other ‘contenders’, but not quite out of the running. With potential for a win-one lose-one, round robin of results over the next few weeks, a Premiership Ménage à Trois is not beyond the realm of possibilities.

And while Kings host Scots in the final Round, possibly for Season silverware, or possibly not!, Joeys will travel a couple of hillocks away to Riverview to complete their 2018 Season “journey”! And last time I looked in on one of those matches, you fair dinkum couldn’t tell which was the side that was meant to be the favourite. Whatever the form guide may say by then, toss it out for that one!!

Should be a brilliant few weeks’ of GPS 1st XV Schools Rugby coming up!

 

[Joker]

Out of interest does anyone know who is winning the GPS 15As competition at this stage?

My records have Joeys with these results.

V Shore- WON 25-6
V Newington- WON 43-14

 

[One eyed pirate]

It’s great that Joeys offer spots to disadvantaged families. But all these private schools do it and your kidding yourself if you think Joeys do it more than the others.

Putting aside your bias, the facts are that just like Scots, Kings and Joeys are the better rugby teams at present, Shore, Kings and Knox are far better at academics than Joeys, Scots, Newington, View (but they are improving)......Those top 3 rank about 30th in the state after many selective schools. Joeys consistently rank 80-90th. Maybe Joeys parents are ok with that or maybe they don’t know or care. But if you look at many of the schools ahead of them with far less funding and no private school fees, my opinion is the results are terrible.




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[Quick Hands]

It’s great that Joeys offer spots to disadvantaged families. But all these private schools do it and your kidding yourself if you think Joeys do it more than the others.

Putting aside your bias, the facts are that just like Scots, Kings and Joeys are the better rugby teams at present, Shore, Kings and Knox are far better at academics than Joeys, Scots, Newington, View (but they are improving)..Those top 3 rank about 30th in the state after many selective schools. Joeys consistently rank 80-90th. Maybe Joeys parents are ok with that or maybe they don’t know or care. But if you look at many of the schools ahead of them with far less funding and no private school fees, my opinion is the results are terrible.




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As previously discussed, if your "rank" doesn't take into account the IB (which comprises over 25% of Year 12 at Newington and in which 80% of the candidates receive and ATAR of over 90), then your "rankings" are a nonsense.

Please provide the criteria (the "facts" of which you speak) on which you are ranking these schools. I suspect that you are just using SMH tables published after the HSC each year. If so, the criteria itself is by no means universally accepted and if the criteria doesn't take into account IB scores (which I suspect it doesn't), then you can't include schools which offer the IB in your rankings.

If my suspicions are correct, then your "facts" aren't facts at all. They are merely your "opinion" based on reading a newspaper column (which itself provides incomplete and contested data) in December each year.

Do you apply ICSEA rankings to moderate raw scores? Do you look at the quartile of parental income for each school and then compensate for its impact? Do you factor in % of students from non-English speaking backgrounds?

 

[Crackerjack]

^^^^
QH, OEP, Joker-man, love your work guys, but sccccrrrrrrtch.
Am not pretending to be a Moderator here; not my go. But after dominating the last couple of pages, can we call time on the “great debate”?
There’s just waaaaay to much quality Rugby just itching to break out over the next few weeks!