John Papahatzis

[lily]

Some of the comments on Papa would make the Sportal morons clap in approval. Remember he is a highly accredited coach who rightly selected a team that he was comfortable with. As a coach if you had a 50% call you go withthe player you know. For too long NSW 1s has been dominated by the GPS and CAS systems with AICES,ISA,CCC and to a lesser extent CHS missing out. It appears after reading alot of the posts that the majority of negative posts are from supporters of the former not the latter systems.
Lastly I have known Kippy for a few years and have had a small involvement with Papa. You are seriously mistaken if you believe that they are deliberately hindering the future of GPS kids for the benefit of their own guys.

 

[Gagger]

Russia?

Beware a slanging match folks. There's a trigger finger on this board

 

[Lee Grant]

People shouldn't get their knickers in a knot about the selection of the NSW I team. I thought it a bit odd that the coach of the Ones was the selector boss for his team, and that he was the coach of a powerful rugby school in a lesser competition. Once he was the selector/coach it was always on the cards that he would do what he did and, in hindsight, it would have been more appropriate for him to have been appointed selector/coach of the Twos.

It shouldn't matter that a lad was chosen in NSW Is instead of NSW IIs. The Oz selectors knew before we did what was likely to happen with NSW Is selections with Papa the boss; so they wouldn't mark a lad down for being in the Twos this year.

It was different in 2006. Qld Twos and NSW Twos played in the final but the Ones players got the bulk of the Oz Schools Ones spots. That year the Twos sides played better as teams but it was clear that Ones boys like like Beale, Cooper and Simmons were better players and were always going to be in the main team. I haven't seen any Championship game this year but it is obviously the case from the excellent reports we are getting that nobody considers that the NSW IIs players are inferior to the Is players.The selectors are smart enough to know that too.

I know that some forum members were disappointed that a relative or school mate didn't make the NSW Ones team but they should take into account what I wrote above and also that they had a chance to make a third team, Combined States.

If objectors say a certain player missed out on the Combined States team because Papa hogged too many of the spots for his ISA players in the Ones, they are pulling a long bow. Different selectors picked the NSW IIs and CS teams so boys had every chance to get a spot. Sure there were marginal calls regarding this boy or that one, but it was always so, and always will be.

.

 

[charcoal]

lily,
He didn't "rightly select" his team. He wrongly formed an opinion of his school players from performances against substandard opposition. His judgements were obviously wrong.

 

[catchpole]

lily,

As players, supporters, parents and/or ticket buying patrons we are all stakeholders in the game of Rugby and entitled to an opinion.

The career of John Papahatzis as a teacher, Rugby Coach and sports administrator is well documented and readily accessible in the public arena. As a teacher, coach and sports administrator I assume that he has advanced his professional career, remuneration and employment status by his well documented exploits and achievements with St. Edmunds, Waverley, St. Augustines and the Australian Schools Rugby program. His representative coaching career is clearly an extension of his profession as a teacher.

Papahatzis elected to progress from individual school rugby programs to the highly political arena of Representative Schoolboy Rugby Coaching. Predictably, in the emotion charged area of Schoolboy Rugby, Papahatzis has attracted his share of controversy over the years.

Any person who enters the political arena of professional sports administration must expect and be able to endure a high degree of public scrutiny and be ready to support their position and judgment with facts and performance. Evidently he has used his immense profile to achieve his strategic goals at the NSW Schools Rugby level in 2009/10 and to be appointed as the Coach and sole selector of the NSW Schools Rugby 1st XV in 2010.

In life and sport there are no “sacred cows”. Surely once he enters the highly publicized and public domain of Representative Schoolboy Rugby he is open to evaluation by all stakeholders and to being judged on his performances, good or bad.

Setting aside any prejudices or loyalties to opposing educational systems and Rugby programs his strategic selection policy in 2010 did not appear to rely on the entire spectrum of Schoolboy Rugby talent on show in NSW in June 2010.

In 2010 his selections were highly focused on familiar players and this strategy drew widespread surprise from many knowledgeable observers who attended the same selection games as Papahatzis and his assistant coach.

I have not detected any suggestions in postings on this forum that his selections were in anyway prejudiced against particular school rugby programs or a deliberate obstruction of talent from competing programs to his own ISA. On the contrary he bravely proceeded to initiate his strategic selection policy in the full knowledge that talent that he chose to ignore would inevitable be acquired by Coaches of other teams and ultimately play in the National Championships against his NSW Schools 1st XV team.

The results of the June 2010 Rugby Carnival were widely distributed and available for extensive review at any level. However, to many knowledgeable observers and patrons at those games it would appear that his selections were inconsistent with the run of play and subsequent results.

With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight his selection policy has also been proven to be flawed and that gamble has not paid off this year at the 2010 National Championships at Ballymore.

Postings on this forum have suggested that a change in Coaching and Selection policy did occur at the NSW Schools AGM between 2009/2010 which led to Papahatzis being appointed as Coach and sole selector for 2010.

The fact that the NSW 2nd XV has progressed to the Final at the National Championship may now cause the NSW Schools Rugby Union to rethink that policy in 2011. Similarly, Paphatzis himself may reconsider his 2010 policy which may affect his decision to stand for reselection in 2011 or affect his chances for reselection at the next AGM.

Good luck to all of the NSW boys playing today at Ballymore.

 

[lily]

lily,
He didn't "rightly select" his team. He wrongly formed an opinion of his school players from performances against substandard opposition. His judgements were obviously wrong.

What I meant was that he rightly had some input into selections. This has not always been the case. Whether he solely picks the team is another debate. Also remember that the players from his school included-
Hingano NSW2s last year
Purcell NSW 16s last year
Brisby NSW1s bench last year
Dombkins - Wasn't he in the 16s as well
Finally Mokofisi who is questionable.
Hardly left field selections.

 

[observer]

With regard to my RIP post on the other thread it is certainly no personal criticism of Papahatsis. Rather, me and I assume the majority are critical of the system. While other associations (eg district clubs in selecting state championship teams) are moving away from the "sole selector" modus operandi to have someone unassociated with the age group concerned as well as the appointment of an independent selector.

In my view NSW Schools have erred in bringing in this controversial and outdated system. The old chestnut " Justice must be seen to be done" is relevant here.

 

[catchpole]

Observer,

I totally agree.

 

[I like to watch]

While other associations (eg district clubs in selecting state championship teams) are moving away from the "sole selector" modus operandi to have someone unassociated with the age group concerned as well as the appointment of an independent selector.

In my view NSW Schools have erred in bringing in this controversial and outdated system. The old chestnut " Justice must be seen to be done" is relevant here.

How do you do it?
If you appoint totally independant selectors, kids who have had form on the board and who would normally get the nod miss out if they have a quiet trial.
Given the time constraits you have to pick 2 state sides based on 2 trial games & background history as to their form with their school side.
I don't care who picks a side based on this scenario, there will always be mistakes, some players will always be unlucky to miss out.
Unfortunately there are too many other things happening for kids in year 12, to start earlier with squads etc.
Even if players trialled in 6 games, there would still be arguments about the merits of some individuals selections.
I would rather someone (the coach) be accountable rather than a bunch of faceless selectors.
when it is all said and done, opinions are like ass holes...every one has one

 

[Spewn]

I agree with the view about having an individual accountable rather than the posse of faceless selectors who can come up with anything (and they do) but then hide behind their anonymity.

 

[RugbyFuture]

in the end if the coach feels comfortable coaching a team froma certain system its fine, remembering hes recruiting a team not just talented individuals. of course if they dont like the coach then thats another problem, btw im from the CAS system (though not very talented)

 

[Wrinkled Rat]

lily,
He didn't "rightly select" his team. He wrongly formed an opinion of his school players from performances against substandard opposition. His judgements were obviously wrong.

A couple of points charcoal;

If the only definition of success is winning then his grades are under a pass mark but I think you need to dig a little deeper.

I have little doubt that there was an autocratic selection process for the NSW 1 & 2 squads formed to contest the nationals but did it really fail?

NSW 1 deliberately picked with a style of rugby consistent with his game plan
NSW 2 selected on merit and widely tipped as the better of the two.

Now if the definition of success is to have more players selected from NSW than Qld in the Oz schoolboys, then the mark is a 9/10.

From all accounts the NSW teams were very competitive and the 1’s scored more tries in their fixture against Qld 2’s, the eventual winners.

Could we have had more in the Oz teams?, possibly but having 19 very happy boys on the plane home and more than Qld is a handy result imo. In fact in the main squad it was NSW 12/Qld 6 and ironically, Championship winners, Qld 2 only had the one name read out.

And if you are suggesting that Joey’s, Knox and three very credentialed NZ schoolboy teams including Christchurch Boys High are substandard competition, I think you are a little off the pace.

I think we all need to be a little careful in respect to comments made on this thread

 

[catchpole]

When do we think that the Australian Schools and Australia 'A" teams will be published?

 

[I like to watch]

Rat, you make some good points.
However i was disappointed in the 1's. They struggled against CS & scraped home. They played OK against Qld 2's scoring 3 tries to 2 but losing. And lost on sunday.
pass or fail? don't know as I am unsure as to papa's input with the 2's, which was the more succesful of the sides by any measure.
What I do know is that nothing short of a clean sweep was going to satisfy a lot of the naysayers that were offended by the number of st Aug/ISA players being selected.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Hingano NSW2s last year
Purcell NSW 16s last year
Brisby NSW1s bench last year
Dombkins - Wasn't he in the 16s as well
Finally Mokofisi who is questionable.
Hardly left field selections.


Dombkins was in nsw 16's last year very mobile player, made Aus a at only 17 great work. also Malietoa Hingano made Aus schools, so much for power house auggies having a star football team.

 

[high tower]

Papa was out manouvered in 09 by politics during NSW schools selection, and considering how many years the GPS and CHS have dominated selection in rep teams he was bound to support his boys this year.
Some of them stood up some were found wanting, there some last year who deserved a better shot.

There were some CAS guys in 09 who had a dream run, and one in particular who played for Australia and he missed or ducked more tackles than he made with a gold jersey on. Lets see if the boys with the pretty passes look great aginst the weaker pacific opposition and then get found out by the kiws again!

 

[sportsfan]

High Tower, when you say "found out by the kiwis again" I wonder if you saw the game at Ballymore last year? It finished 28-24 from memory, the Aus kids (particualrly 1-8) really stood up to and in some cases over their opposites, the 9 put up with getting pushed and shoved and gave as good as he got, and in the end the difference was a remarakable and well executed cross field "kick pass" to a wide running loose forward. Something that even our Super Rugby teams find impossible to defend. Or if you dont think that was the difference what about a 55m penalty goal kicked in by NZ in the first few minutes of the game. Placed well within their own half and kicked onto 4X hill! Give the boys their due, they worked hard until the 80th minute and were beaten on the night.

 

[high tower]

Since you brought up the 9, is that the same player who was moved away from scrum half for a defensive scrum on the Australian goal line. I have never seen a super 14 half back taken away from the scrumbase in the same situation. the pusha nd shove is juvenile stuff and is better laughed off than returned IMO He never looked physically upto the task, brillant pass no arguement, but 9's are required to tidy up the guys who bust thru the front line and last years 9's rarely looked likely.
Its worth noting that Robbie Deans has gone looking for players who are strong, offensively and just as strong defensively to steel the Wallabies for the tri nations, and the u/20s looked great in south America recently till they ran into the Kiwi's.
The schoolboys are promoted as the pathway for the young guys and the selectors need to be certain that if called upon a guy will be able to make a tackle. Gregan, Genia, Burgess(plenty of better passes around - few can match his committment at the tackle) seem to be the modern model.
Happy for the three 9's who toured last year to prove me wrong, lets see if any are playing first grade in Sydney or Brisbane next year.

 

[barbarian]

I think he deserves plenty of criticism. Or whoever selected the NSW 1s does. All this crap about 'breaking the GPS dominance' misses the point that at the NSW championships GPS flogged every other team there. And all this with just one training session under their belts. Now I understand the issue of placing all your emphasis on one trial etc etc but some things in rugby are black and white. The GPS was the best side at the NSW trials.

So how many GPS players make the NSW 1st XV? 3. How many St Augustines players make the XV? 5. I think those are damning statistics, and have thankfully been rectified by the Australian Selectors (9 GPS and only 1 Augustines). The fact that they underperformed at the championships adds further fuel to the fire. The comparisons to Sportal are a bit much but the guy clearly deserves a kick up the arse. The whole selection panel does frankly.

 

[NorthernSon]

We can nearly wrap up this thread with some thoughts and prayers for the CAS and GPS 1st , 2nd and 3rd players who in their own right are standouts for their respective school 1st XV's who have had their rugby careers stalled by the self empowered Pappa and Kipp combo.

Pappa knew only top well that his representative coaching future lied in the performance of his own boys and yes the majority failed in their moment in the sky blue. The CS match went to the wire and the writing was on the wall and hence the two from four at the national tournament will see the experiment terminated and be simply reflected upon as the "2010 travesty of rugby justice