How does this help Australian Rugby.

[disco]

Just looking at the Force & Rebels squad & how they have average Kiwis taking the position of an up & coming Aussie.

For example the Western Force have released Tom Hocking for Toby Lynn how the fuck does that help Australian Rugby.
Hocking was probably one of the best players @ the Force in 2008 & now he's gone.

Ben Whittaker is Warming the bench at the Western Force while Ged Robinson & Adam Freier are getting good minutes at the Rebels, again how the fuck does this help Australian Rugby.

Sure Freier is an Aussie but he's old & injury prone & I can't see him ever playing for the Australian Barbarians let alone the Wallabies.

The Rebels & Force were supposed to build depth for the Wallabies why is the ARU letting this happen.

The Force need a massive kick in the arse they had Brock James, Scott Hilgendorf & Scott Daruda all on their roster & lost them all for Matt Giteau & now they have a halfback playing flyhalf & no back up.
What a fucking joke they should have groomed those 3 players into seasoned super rugby players now 2 of them are completely lost to Australian Super rugby.

The Force have also gone & found a Fijian winger as Will Chambers has gone back to league an an Aussie with a lot of talent who's down on confidence but can play wing or centre.

This post could go on for ever but I think it's time the ARU stepped in & set up a draft or something because we are losing to much good young talent & the Force & Rebels are wasting money & time on players who don't add to the national cause.

 

[tigerland12]

I'm also suprised Will Chambers wasn't picked up, would of been a good signing for the Force or Brumbies right now.

Costs and contracts come into it obviously, Ben Whittaker is probably still within his contract time, hence why he wasn't picked up elsewhere.

 

[Brumby Jack]

Chambers went back to league so wasn't really an option.

 

[Braveheart81]

Teams are limited in the number of foreign players they can have. I believe the Rebels were allowed a couple of extras in their first two seasons but then that must drop.

I don't think any team has an obligation to play a young player over an experienced player because the experienced player will never play for the Wallabies again. Teams need experience too.

 

[Cave Dweller]

You want to build depth and change a system that was in place for ages in just 4 years?

 

[Slim 293]

I'm also suprised Will Chambers wasn't picked up, would of been a good signing for the Force or Brumbies right now.

Costs and contracts come into it obviously, Ben Whittaker is probably still within his contract time, hence why he wasn't picked up elsewhere.

Will Chambers only usefulness in coming to Canberra would be to play club rugby for Royals who missed out on a Brumby when Hoiles got the boot...

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

It helps Australian Rugby in that the allowable limit of foreign players is quite low.
It further helps australian rugby by bringing in talented foreign players who provide the benefit of mentoring younger australian players. It benefits australian rugby by bringing in quality foreigners for short periods of time which increases the competition for the spot in which they play. this forces less quality domestic players to learn off them, work harder and increase their ability on the field otherwise they wont play.

This nationalist ranting is useless. the quota for foreign players is nothing in a 30 man squad. Look at Wales and Ireland - the two teams that have improved the most in the past decade in terms of results and style of play - how many foreigners are on their top level teams? more than australias.

If you think austrlaian rugby would be better of by having Tim Davidson at number 8 for the rebels instead of Delve, you're delusional my good man. Delve's benefits to Austrlian rugby go beyond his efforts on the field

if you think australian rugby would be better off having a 2nd rate australian 9 playing for the Tahs instead of Sarel, you're delusional my good man. Sarel is an exceptional talent who is the perfect model for what his understudy at the tahs should strive for.

the above players are two examples and they are fantastic players. they will help improve younger players game below them. I would much rather see young players with little experience be exposed to players of their calibre so that they can learn from t hem and improve the deficiancies in their immature games than see these young guys start right away and fizzle out under the pressure. not every australian number 9 is will genia.....

to sum it up....get over it....its a reality, they are here and despite what you might think, they are a benefit. Has france gotten worse in the past 8 years with the rise of the tp 14 and the influx of foreigners? i would suggest they have gotten better. especially their forwards.

sorry but that kind of illogic gets to me. the evidence suggests the contrary of what you're saying.

lastly........who are you to decide what the rebels, a privately owned rugby club, should do with their hookers? if they feel freier is better value than some unproven and inexperienced player, that is their decision.

 

[qwerty51]

I hate how players can be Australian eligible because they find some family history link that makes some part Australian in an absurd way when really they might've never set foot here or even cared about the country. Because of this the overseas restrictions are now useless. I couldn't believe it when RG on the podcast the other day said how it was "excellent" that a player was born in Melbourne or had an Australia parent just so they could use them without taking up an overseas spot. Do these players even want to play for the Wallabies and share the same national passion as players that have lived their whole lives here? Doubt it.

 

[Braveheart81]

I disagree with that. I don't think players have any problem representing their country of choice (that they legitimately qualify for) with passion and complete commitment.

I don't think it is much different than saying that a player born in NSW couldn't possibly be committed enough to play rugby for QLD etc.

 

[Slim 293]

Personally, I don't care where the players come from as long as they're good enough...

 

[thierry dusautoir]

^^^^going by that logic we wouldn't of had Genia,Pocock or Cooper considering they only came here through school when they were teenagers. We wouldnt have Kepu he played NZ U21's or Rathbone RSA U21's. Willie O, Radike Samo.

All these lads came to australia where abel to play due to a range of circumstances but all of them were loyal servants. If the boys you mention dont want to play for australia chances are they will leave as NZ wont pick them unless they play for an NZ team.

I will judge them by how they don the green and gold rather than how they hypothetically might

 

[Braveheart81]

... and George Gregan didn't care about the Wallabies because he wasn't born here.

 

[disco]

It helps Australian Rugby in that the allowable limit of foreign players is quite low.
It further helps australian rugby by bringing in talented foreign players who provide the benefit of mentoring younger australian players. It benefits australian rugby by bringing in quality foreigners for short periods of time which increases the competition for the spot in which they play. this forces less quality domestic players to learn off them, work harder and increase their ability on the field otherwise they wont play.

This nationalist ranting is useless. the quota for foreign players is nothing in a 30 man squad. Look at Wales and Ireland - the two teams that have improved the most in the past decade in terms of results and style of play - how many foreigners are on their top level teams? more than australias.

If you think austrlaian rugby would be better of by having Tim Davidson at number 8 for the rebels instead of Delve, you're delusional my good man. Delve's benefits to Austrlian rugby go beyond his efforts on the field

if you think australian rugby would be better off having a 2nd rate australian 9 playing for the Tahs instead of Sarel, you're delusional my good man. Sarel is an exceptional talent who is the perfect model for what his understudy at the tahs should strive for.

the above players are two examples and they are fantastic players. they will help improve younger players game below them. I would much rather see young players with little experience be exposed to players of their calibre so that they can learn from t hem and improve the deficiancies in their immature games than see these young guys start right away and fizzle out under the pressure. not every australian number 9 is will genia.....

to sum it up....get over it....its a reality, they are here and despite what you might think, they are a benefit. Has france gotten worse in the past 8 years with the rise of the tp 14 and the influx of foreigners? i would suggest they have gotten better. especially their forwards.

sorry but that kind of illogic gets to me. the evidence suggests the contrary of what you're saying.

lastly........who are you to decide what the rebels, a privately owned rugby club, should do with their hookers? if they feel freier is better value than some unproven and inexperienced player, that is their decision.

Other than Sarel Pretirous I wouldn't be calling any of these blokes talented foreign players. Delve was good last year but looks old & off the pace this year. Cipriani is inconsistent & I'm pretty sure he's to busy looking in the mirror to mentor anyone. If Delve is there for his off the field talents then give him a water bottle next to Nathan Grey.

You haven't once mentioned my example of Tom Hocking & Toby Lynn at the Western Force. We've actually lost a good young Aussie for an over the hill shit Kiwi. How is that a nationalist rant it's a good point you've not mentioned the need for the Western Force & Rebels to develop young players or at least try and bring some back.

Yes France have gotten worse over the last 8 years go look at their results in the six nations & poor record at home recently.

I don't decide what the Rebels should do with anyone but they were given the 5th Aussie Super Rugby club with the responsibility of developing future Wallabies & Ged Robinson & Adam Freier aren't that.

You only have to look at Hugh Pyle & Nick Phipps to realise that these blokes will get better with time. In 2007 Will Genia, Berrick Barnes, Quade Cooper & James Horwill played in the biggest ever defeat in Super Rugby history 3 years on & they were the backbone of the Wallabies & 3 of them just won a Super Rugby title & Tri-Nations Trophy.

Short term pain for long term gain. The Rebels & the Force don't seem to understand that & they're set for some long term pain without gain unless they start to identify & develop good Aussie talent.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

I agree very much with Sir Arthur.

If I'm a coach at for e.g. the Rebels & I have a contract where I must deliver some significant improvement in playing performance during that contract then I am going to look at players available that are going to give me the best chance of achieving this. Now if you give me the choice of a local VRU player, Shute Shield Rugby player, or QLD player (whatever QLD's equivalent of Shute is), or a Kiwi with Superugby & ITM cup experience then with all due respect to the Australian rugby system I'm picking the Kiwi just about every time.

If I'm an Aussie up & coming player who is competitive, wants to push themselves to be the best player they can be & isn't interested in being a "big fish in a small pond" then what would I prefer to be an understudy of? Shute shield player or Kiwi Superugby player with ITM cup background - if it were me the Kiwi would be the preferred choice again.

Add into this the very top down system from the ARU with large numbers of Rugby players outside of main Oz cities being lost to other sports or hitting a dead end in their development & you can see the issue is not kiwi or foreign players. Our system in this country has created this. Oz system has punched well above its weight for a long time but time will catch up with this. I feel the ARU's attitude to this is one of "until it goes absolutely tits up we'll do nothing".

There are people that say Oz should be happy with what it has & that it will never be better - that is absolute BS. That mentality is "too hard don't try" stuff. We will never be the player factory that NZ is but we can be better.

But please don't bag out the Kiwi players, they add more to the Oz teams they play for.

 

[Baldric]

There are also the folloowing issues. to address.
1. Who will support a development team that gets thrashed every week.
2. The talent for these teams will come from somewhere. Hardly going to be much homegrown talent in Vic and WA so expect to see the traditional teams young talent being poached to their detriment.

The question is if there are enough rugby players of the required level in SA.
The "poaching" needs to happen to get enough people

 

[disco]

So losing Tom Hocking for Toby Lynn is a good thing for Australian Rugby? I don't care if they are Kiwi, Saffa, Fijian or Poms no foreign player should replace an Aussie & the ARU need to stop it.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

Other than Sarel Pretirous I wouldn't be calling any of these blokes talented foreign players. Delve was good last year but looks old & off the pace this year. Cipriani is inconsistent & I'm pretty sure he's to busy looking in the mirror to mentor anyone. If Delve is there for his off the field talents then give him a water bottle next to Nathan Grey.

You haven't once mentioned my example of Tom Hocking & Toby Lynn at the Western Force. We've actually lost a good young Aussie for an over the hill shit Kiwi. How is that a nationalist rant it's a good point you've not mentioned the need for the Western Force & Rebels to develop young players or at least try and bring some back.

Yes France have gotten worse over the last 8 years go look at their results in the six nations & poor record at home recently.

I don't decide what the Rebels should do with anyone but they were given the 5th Aussie Super Rugby club with the responsibility of developing future Wallabies & Ged Robinson & Adam Freier aren't that.

You only have to look at Hugh Pyle & Nick Phipps to realise that these blokes will get better with time. In 2007 Will Genia, Berrick Barnes, Quade Cooper & James Horwill played in the biggest ever defeat in Super Rugby history 3 years on & they were the backbone of the Wallabies & 3 of them just won a Super Rugby title & Tri-Nations Trophy.

Short term pain for long term gain. The Rebels & the Force don't seem to understand that & they're set for some long term pain without gain unless they start to identify & develop good Aussie talent.

disagree completely on ged robinson (presume the kiwi you reference)
first of all - he's 28. he's not over the hill. hookers can generally play into their 30's no problems.
second of all - he was one of the top hookers in the competition last year, let alone in the Australian conference.

Why in the world would you pick up an immature an inexperienced hooker over him in your first two years in the comp? should the rebels look to develop long term from day 1?

Also disagree on delve. Think he is the best 8 in the Australian conference at the moment and can't phathom how you say he is off the pace this year. he's been outstanding and an absolute work horse. he might not make the flashy breaks of other 8s, but that's not the style of 8 man he is and that in no way lessons his impact on the field.

as i said.....not every 9 in australia is will genia and can bounce back from a hiding.

don't think you should be adding phipps into that category personally. certainly not yet.

Cipriani for all his faults on the field (many) has brought publicity to the rebels and bums in seats. that is his value. that said, after year 2, happy to see him leave now that we have beale and oconnor.

Hocking and Lynn - there are 5 australian super rugby teams. if 5 coaching staffs don't think they are the best options out there that should tell you something.

 

[AngrySeahorse]

On the point of hookers in their 30's two good examples Andrew Hore (33) & Jason Rutledge (34). Both very good players.

 

[Sir Arthur Higgins]

So losing Tom Hocking for Toby Lynn is a good thing for Australian Rugby? I don't care if they are Kiwi, Saffa, Fijian or Poms no foreign player should replace an Aussie & the ARU need to stop it.

don't understand how they are "lost"
have they quit rugby? have they signed on to play for wales?

they aren't good enough at the moment evidently. they can play club rugby and improve their game, they can go overseas and improve their game and return.

they evidently aren't good enough to play super rugby. if they aren't good enough to play super rugby they aren't going to play for the wallabies so if they head elsewhere for a few years to improve and get game time...everyones a winner.

the aru can't fund every single wallaby hopeful and the clubs can't afford to bankrol every single wallaby hopeful.

 

[disco]

There are also the folloowing issues. to address.
1. Who will support a development team that gets thrashed every week.

Well you still support the Rebels & I've been supporting the Reds since 2000. I'd rather see my team of young Aussies get thrashed than a bunch of foreigners on more money doing nothing for the Wallabies getting thrashed.