How do you coach scrum improvement?

[dougdew99]

My guess is that we can all agree that the Wallaby scrum needs to be better. Given we have a collection of forwards who are or close to the best in Australia, how do you go about making them more effective, and why has this been so hard to achieve, since we have been hearing how bad they are for years? What do other countries do that we don't?

 

[formerflanker]

My guess is that we can all agree that the Wallaby scrum needs to be better. Given we have a collection of forwards who are or close to the best in Australia, how do you go about making them more effective, and why has this been so hard to achieve, since we have been hearing how bad they are for years? What do other countries do that we don't?

A very good place to start is the Laws of Rugby, law 20 - Scrum. Lots of detail there that we see being breached under pressure. Binding, position of the props, twisting, collapsing, lifting - all the basics are there. Lots for the refs to sanction if they wish.
I know there is a lot of weight in play during each scrum, but many penalties seem to be the result of brain explosions and poor technique that overlooks the basic Laws of scrum time.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Start by googling mike cron and watching the numerous YouTube vids of his simple common sense views.

 

[Pfitzy]

Like most things in rugby, the scrum is not that difficult, but it requires hard work, patience, a willingness to learn, and most importantly: teamwork.

Those five guys who play together need to be closer than brothers. They need to eat, sleep, and breathe the same air together until they operate like they're made from the same DNA.

Mostly importantly, they need to sink the piss together and preferably destroy a local pub.

And if all that fails, then cheat like a muthafucka. Because cheating is rugby.

 

[formerflanker]

Start by googling mike cron and watching the numerous YouTube vids of his simple common sense views.

Excellent stuff from Mike Cron. I'm also a fan of Topo's book, even though it is a couple of years old.

 

[teach]

New Zealand has the Front Row factory and its various spin offs. There are training sessions to help train the coaches, who can then go back to their own teams. Lots of good stuff provided by the NZRFU as well. Props are key members of the team and good ones are highly valued here. School boys learn very fast that maximum game time can be made if they shift to the front row.

Super rugby players can be arranged to come and give tips to the boys at schools. I know we have had Highlanders props in at our training sessions, as well as former players running clinics. But we are lucky that we have had a few recent all blacks that are willing to come back in now and then (Ben Smith recently springs to mind). I remember Carl Hayman coming in that taking the 1st XV just before he got made an AB.

The last year or two, Kees Meeuws, former AB and a player who spent a few years in France, was available for training sessions. I took Junior along at the start of this season to the front row sessions being run in Otago. We had him and Super rugby refs explaining the new scrum engagements and how to scrum effectively.

On a personal note, I ditched the scrum machine long ago for training young props, I use it more when getting flankers and locks to bind on properly. I find more value in live scrums, as the angles are different from scrum machines. Plus most are built for adults, not youths, and they don't push back, bore in or try and pop you up. Skills that props need to learn how to counter.

I also believe that junior players are a little scared of the front row. I convert a lot of junior players each year to the front row, some sent to me from other teams. But that is simply because I played 17 seasons of senior rugby so learnt a few tricks over the years. First time Hookers in particular will pop up out of a scrum, grinning about how easy it was. Some players love the fact that they have a scrum and get to physically drive back someone who may well be much bigger than them, then they love the position. To be honest, thats why i kept playing for as long as I did. My inability to catch, kick, pass or tackle meant I wasn't much use elsewhere, but I could scrum and I learnt to do both sides.

Encourage junior players to have a go at Tight head and Loose head. they are quite different positions, with different angles and binding and challenges. Not too many players, even internationals can cover both sides of the scrum well.

One thing I have noticed on this forum is the referring to the props as pigs. I don't know if this is a common attitude in OZ, but maybe juniors pick up on it and get put off. Just putting it out there.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[TOCC]

I rate Nic Stiles very highly as a set piece coach, under his coaching the Force constantly presented a strong scrum, and the previously flaky Reds scrum turned into a strong set piece during 2014. This has flowed on to the Wallabies somewhat with improved scrummaging performances from Slipper, Fainga'a, Simmons and Horwill in 2014.

He was also head coach of Brisbane City, there scrum in the GF did a number of an experienced opposition front row of Pek Cowan and Olly Hoskins.

 

[Aussie D]

teach, I wouldn't worry too much about the forwards in Oz being called 'pigs' or 'piggies' as it is a term of endearment. Pigs like rolling around in the mud and so do forwards is what it is based on IIRC.

Like you I could barely catch, pass, kick or tackle and as soon as I was fat enough to play prop it brought a whole new lease of life to playing rugby and I never wanted to move from the position. As an aside, I remember playing seconds one day down at Oakvale (? think it was that club home ground is the local high school somewhere near Liverpool) we were playing in the run and the field, especially the area 5 metres out from the goal line was muddy as anything. I'd come on as a HT replacement (the TH was needed for first grade) and we got absolutely owned in the scrums, the other team outweighed us by a hundred or more kgs (we were a university side with most of our forwards skinny kids, whilst they were all rather large islander lads). Anywho, they ended up scoring 4 push over tries in that half as we could not get any traction in the mud. On one of their pushovers, a tighthead, you could see the marks of our studs in the mud from where we were pushed back. I will always remember that game with affection even though we got trounced it was fun.

 

[teach]

I was being somewhat self deprecating, I was never allowed to kick, and if I got the ball I would rather smash it up. Though I admit one coach had a rule that no one was allowed to pass me the ball.

I got plenty of game time over the years, even into my thirties, when I was slower but probably a better scrummager. In my final seasons, I was playing senior rugby with guys who I had coached at high school level. Quite a laugh.

 

[qwerty51]

I think the Wallabies have the wrong Blades brother coaching the scrum.

 

[Aussie D]

teach,
I know how you feel. In my final year I was playing with sons of the men I played with when I first started playing grade. When that happened I knew it was time I thought about retiring (that and the wife telling me I had too as she was sick of the 4 days of whining about the soreness of my body after each game).

 

[Brendan Hume]

Concur with Teach here. The only way to get better at scrumagging is by doing it. A lot.

Players are selected by coaches for many different reasons - Skelton can't jump or scrummage, but he can be dynamite with the ball, Alexander can't scrummage, but he's proven to be very good around the paddock in the past.

I've often wondered why the Wallabies (and more particularly the State Squads who have more time for this) don't get some of the best scrummagers from the area that they are training (eg, Sydney, Brisbane, etc) and do a hundred live scrums.

Some of the best scrummagers are those blokes in their late 30s or early 40s, probably are playing third or fourth grade, who have played for 20 years and know all the tricks in the book. These are the people who will make the scrum better, not the second or third best prop in a team that has been selected because he's a hard worker at the breakdown, has a high tackle completion rate and does his best to hold up at scrum time.

Rugby is a great community with so much knowledge that remains untapped...

 

[Chris McCracken]

These are the people who will make the scrum better, not the second or third best prop in a team that has been selected because he's a hard worker at the breakdown, has a high tackle completion rate and does his best to hold up at scrum time.

Rugby is a great community with so much knowledge that remains untapped.

I think this is a salient point. I just don't think the scrum is valued by a large chunk of the Rugby community. Hence, it remains untrained and unpracticed. Or, at best, it is managed in order to get away with minimum damage.

As such, by the time the players get to a level where they are required to scrum at a higher level, they can't.

As an example, my 17s team had a dominant scrum this year. They did last year as 15s, as well. The smallest front row in the zone, but technically very good. How did other teams contest against our scrum? They had "injuries" to front rowers so that the scrum had to be uncontested. They were coaches who tried to background the referees that we were doing something illegal. Others held the referee to the 1.5m under 19 rule.

Only one team really did anything to improve their scrum. The rest just whinged and tried to come up with loopholes. Even when some of the guys got some better coaching at the zone level - along with offers to run scrum clinics for the entire zone, no-one cared.

So, for me, the issue starts at juniors when we put flankers in at prop and/or don't train them correctly. It gets worse when you consider that - even at the very top level - we're still trying to shoe-horn flankers in as props. My understanding is that James Slipper started life as a 10. While he's a good enough prop now, I don't think anyone would argue the scrum is a strong point.

I think it's pretty rare we find a Wallaby prop who has been one since he was 12. I bet Jason Leonard was never anything else. Perhaps with the Alo-Emiles and Alaalatoas of the world will change that attitude a bit.

Edit: Wall of text, I know.

 

[Chris McCracken]

teach, I wouldn't worry too much about the forwards in Oz being called 'pigs' or 'piggies' as it is a term of endearment. Pigs like rolling around in the mud and so do forwards is what it is based on IIRC.

As much as I hate to say it, this is an issue (albeit a tiny one) in junior footy. I've known kids who complain at being referred to as piggies. Parents, as well can be a bit hypersensitive. I've been censured over my use of the term "wide guys", as well.

Mind you, this doesn't happen on my team, the team name is the Boars. So we are the pigs whether we are forwards or backs.

 

[boyo]

How do you coach scrum improvement?


With a shotgun?

 

[mxyzptlk]

Start by googling mike cron and watching the numerous YouTube vids of his simple common sense views.

Could also spend some time watching what Argentina do differently from other countries. When their scrum works, it's a bulldozer. They almost always seem to get a little flatter and tighter, and they seem to work like a spring -- they let the opposition shove first and get a little stretched, and then from that compact position all move in unison at just the right moment, catching the opposition when they're at their weakest, most extended position.

I'd never be let near a scrum except at scrum half, way too small. But the physics of it are fascinating to me, and Argentina are the physicians of the scrum. (Physicians? sure.)

 

[mxyzptlk]

New Zealand has the Front Row factory and its various spin offs.

Out of curiosity, about how many scrums would you say you did before you became settled in the front row, or even good? I forget the exact line, but there's a saying in boxing that you don't really know how to throw a jab until you've thrown like 10,000 of them. I was a wrestler, and we did the same thing with takedowns -- hundreds a week just to get one right in a match, and after a few years of that you might get a technique down.

I'd imagine it has to be something similar with scrums, and that gets harder because you need the same pack for all the practice. That would also take a hell of a lot of patience and discipline from younger players, and if the scrum isn't made to seem sexy, you'll have a harder time getting younger players to commit.

So -- ballpark figure?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I forget the exact line, but there's a saying in boxing that you don't really know how to throw a jab until you've thrown like 10,000 of them.

10,000 hours is/was the theory for all activity - playing the violin included - Malcolm Gladwell in "Outliers" brought it to popular attention.
I've heard some recent criticisms.

 

[mxyzptlk]

10,000 hours is/was the theory for all activity - playing the violin included - Malcolm Gladwell in "Outliers" brought it to popular attention.
I've heard some recent criticisms.

No, that's not it -- this is an oooold thing in boxing. I've been hearing it since I was a kid a couple decades ago. It's not about the hours, it's about the repetition.

 

[Melbourne Terrace]

Send them to Europe and make them play against the best frontrowers in the world each weak.