Giteau

[Biffo]

I have spent most of the last week in bed, in quite some pain from two discs in my lower back leaking fluid. Ouch. Getting better slowly.

I have spent a lot of the time reflecting on rugby matters. I have been reading the continuing criticism of Giteau and asked myself the age-old "why is it so?". There seem to be a few perceptions of Giteau - that he is a 12 and only a 12, of varying quality; that he is a competent but not great 10; that he is a crap 10; others. Why all the differing opinions?

I have formed a hypothesis, after much recalling and reflecting. It is that Giteau may (can?) be a great 10. The conditions for that to happen are two. The first is very obvious - reasonable ball from the forwards and good service from the 9. The second is far more contentious and hard for me to assess from my memory alone - it is that Giteau is an outstanding (perhaps great) 10 when he has runners to position.

If you look at his performances at 10 with the Force, you'll probably conclude as I did. He had a fair forward pack and a fair 9. He had a plethora of runners from whom to choose or who would choose for him by positioning themselves. Looked good then, didn't he?

With the Wallabies, the position has been very different. Our pack was OK last year and this year has developed into a weapon, although it is not yet the mighty unit it will be come 2011. Genia has provided good (but let's not get carried away and call it outstanding) service. The Genia/Giteau gig is still new and will improve.

However, the second condition doesn't apply at all. Our backs have been crap for years. The only runner Giteau has at his disposal is Ashley-Cooper. Ioane is not yet a runner in the sense of making a quarter break into a half break, a half break into a full break and a full break into a try. Think Jason Little, Dan Herbert, Stirling Mortlock, Nathan Grey. I am a huge Digby supporter but his great value at present is as a broken play runner, smashing holes from nothing and chasing. He isn't yet a player that a 10 (or 12) can look to position for the big break. As for the others (might I remind you that they are The Burglar, Hynes, Mitchell) ... pffffft. I love Hynes' relentless work rate and finishing but he is not a runner in the sense I use the word.

Suppose we had some runners. Let's say Shepherd, Horne and Morahan. Then Gits would be able to scheme and plot and position. Horne has a great football brain and would be scheming endlessly for position to be served by Giteau. The backline might improve a little (ha ha) and Gits might look very good indeed.

Improve some positional play and angles and get Rocky, Palu, Polota-Nau, Bam Bam and that lazy big bastard Horwill running onto passes from Gits and the (who?) 12 in phase play and we might have a very nice attack.

How does my hypothesis stand?

I am sure Robbie D has thought of all of that already. If you don't believe me, go watch a few Crusaders' games during his tenure.

BTW, did y'all notice that Dan Vickerman played a full 80 minutes yesterday? I bet Robbie D made a congratulatory ( ) call today.

 

[Gagger]

What medication did you say you were on?

Great post and some interesting thinking there Biffo.

However my hypothesis would be that it's more to with the quality of the opposition defences. He kills it in S14, kills it in the domestic pre 3Ns internationals, and then runs sideways and cross-kicks his way through the rest of the year, until the Welsh freddy fuckups turn out.

That's not to say I think he has great running support either.

GTSYB (Good to see you back) from your strop!

 

[Biffo]

What medication did you say you were on?

Some really great stuff The docs (three ladies ) have promised me something really special for my flights to Bangkok on Monday :yay

 

[Spook]

What medication did you say you were on?

Some really great stuff The docs (three ladies ) have promised me something really special for my flights to Bangkok on Monday :yay

You'll be needing a hip replacement soon as well

 

[Lindommer]

You may have a point here, Biffo, re Giteau's effect on a match with decent runners. His performance in the recent BaaBaas game was revelationary. What he did have was a decent inside centre which goes some way to confirming your theory.

Gee, we're weak in numbers 11 to 15 at the moment. The fact a pimply midget in JOC (James O'Connor)'s anywhere near a Wallaby squad exemplifies this point. If only Shepherd was fit AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) would develop into the top-notch outside centre I reckon he could be. If only Ioane and Mortlock could stay fit. If only Hynes had Turner's speed and Turner had Hynes's work ethic and physicality. If only any of Barnes, Beale, Cooper or To'omua could stay fit/get up to speed at five-eighth Gits could slot into the 12 jumper, and stay there. If only we could work out where AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Ioane should play, and leave them there. Our forwards made a big improvement on the recent EoYT but the backs have gone nowhere. And I include the Scottish debacle here. But all these suppositions (and dreaming on my account) hinge on where Giteau slots in.

 

[Biffo]

What medication did you say you were on?

Some really great stuff The docs (three ladies ) have promised me something really special for my flights to Bangkok on Monday :yay

You'll be needing a hip replacement soon as well

Two of the three are absolutely gorgeous ... but ... their boyfriends, who are good mates of mine, usually come along to the consultations :'( . The third, who isn't, is hitting on me. I'd run ... and fast ... if I had any locomotion.

 

[spectator]

Welcome back from the 'holiday' Biffo. Interesting hypothesising there.

Giteau did look good in that Barbarian game with those two big, strong and direct running centres to feed and he didn't try to produce a result from every touch. The match also showcased his general kicking skills. My opinion is that he tends to overplay his hand at 10 far too often, and is outstanding at 12 because there is that extra time and space.

He does get more criticism than he should, in terms of his rugby ability, but I think a lot of that is because of his alleged off field petulance, and the fact that rugby fans expect so much more of him. He's a rare talent, that's for sure, how many players are good enough to have represented their country in all three inside back positions, and have the ability to play at that level in all the outside back positions?

 

[Lee Grant]

Yeah interesting post Biffo and I won't ask how you got your bad back.

I agree pretty much with spectator - and just about everybody else. Everybody wants him in the team because he is our one world class back as defined as somebody who would make a World XV, or come horribly close to selection; yet we see he is not Mr.Perfect as a 10.

We Aussies judge him a bit more harshly than overseas people do - they rave over him, just as they raved over Campo and we were sometimes cool.

Blind Freddie knows that he tries the outside break too much as a fly half, something a centre should be doing, but Fred also knows that it works against the lesser players of the Super14. He also knows that if Giteau has to play flyhalf for Oz or not at all, Gits will be wearing the 10 jersey for as long as he wants to.

At least Giteau is trying to use others more this season. He had an influential game against the Barbarians on attack and that pass to set up the 3rd Habana try was terrific. Having said that you see such a try in just about every league game you watch.

The try was well received by both the moaning Kiwi commentators and the Brit commentators, but if you watch the first Kiwi try you see that he is not a great defender - especially further out.

Don't get ready to type out that he's a good tackler - I didn't say he wasn't. I don't think he is great in reading play defensively, nor working with his fellow defenders. (Not to the point, but I think Ioane is the same.) Such imperfections are suffered by great sportsmen: Ponting is not the greatest judge of a quick single - and Tiger is not a great driver

In the lead up to that Kiwi try Giteau went into tackle somebody already covered and left Mitchell high and dry to be beaten by a 2 on 1.

Maybe Deans has spotted that and thinks he causes less harm at 10.

On the point of not having good runners to dish the ball to: he needs his clone to play 12. Not possible. If we use 12s who are really 10s - 2nd 5s, if you will - we can't expect them to be great hole runners. Sure, Barnes can make a break every now and then and so can Cooper as we saw against Italy on the 2008 EOYT, when he won the game for us - but they aren't elite runners like a Nonu or a Jauzion or a Roberts or even a D'Arcy or JdV on their good days.

It's the price you pay for having a 2nd 5 at 12.

So; is it best to have Cooper or Barnes at 10 and tell Gits he has to play 12 - or should we look at a 12 who is a hole runner. We don't really have one to look at. Tyrone Smith may well be closest but he doesn't find the gap before he gets the ball and tends to run over folks.

I'm coming round to the point of view, since it is clear that Deans is not going to use Barnes at 10, that Giteau should stay there until we find one of the young flyhalves playing out of their skin in the Super14 or until we find a 12 who knows what a hole looks like.

Of all the players in the Super 14 it is Robbie Horne that has the most potential as a running 12. I've seen him play there as a schoolboy for NSW Schools, and he could find the gap, give the golden pass and didn't have the worst kicking game either. But we've seen none of that in the S14 because he plays outside centre for the Tahs and the trouble is: he the only specialist 13 they have.

Alas, the chances of spotting him at 12 in the S14 to see how he goes are not great.

 

[Biffo]

I won't ask how you got your bad back.

I was going to breakfast at my hotel in Medan. When I got to the lift, there was a lady waiting so I stood back about 4 steps to allow people to get off the lift and her to get on first. She stepped in to the lift very quickly and pressed the "close door" button immediately. I followed, alas too slowly, and got hit smack on both hips by the closing doors - sandwich from hip to knee. Simple as that.

I was lucky. Does anyone remember the case of the State MP (Moana Pasifika) for Eden Monaro (was it Dougal Munro?) in the 1970s? He was in a hurry and ran for a lift in a building in Sydney and got hit by the closing doors. The lift was the old "cage" style with no auto stop on the doors. The lift ascended with him caught between the doors. He was mangled to death. Horrible way to go. Also horrible for the people who were in the lift.

PS. My lady does not believe my account of getting the injury.

 

[Lee Grant]

I know what you mean about your lady not believing you.

In my younger days I went to a seafood restaurant with some workmates in a kind of boys night out. We were shelling prawns and slurping oysters from the shell etc etc.

When I got back to the apartment I was staying at with my girlfriend at the time she was already suspicious I was so late and she said: "What's that smell?" She sniffed my fingers and said: "You bastard," and walked out.

Took me weeks to convince her I hadn't misbehaved.

 

[Biffo]

What's the difference between sushi and pussy?

The rice.

 

[Newb]

:lmao: :yay to both LG and Biffo. that was good.

 

[Lindommer]

Ah, these old codgers, they can still dream.

 

[Aussie D]

1 He also knows that if Giteau has to play flyhalf for Oz or not at all, Gits will be wearing the 10 jersey for as long as he wants to.

2 and Tiger is not a great driver

3 Of all the players in the Super 14 it is Robbie Horne that has the most potential as a running 12. I've seen him play there as a schoolboy for NSW Schools, and he could find the gap, give the golden pass and didn't have the worst kicking game either. But we've seen none of that in the S14 because he plays outside centre for the Tahs and the trouble is: he the only specialist 13 they have.

Alas, the chances of spotting him at 12 in the S14 to see how he goes are not great.

1. Do we really want players being so petulant (as rumoured - I don't know whether this is fact or not - does anyone?) as to demand a position in the national team of their choice or they won't play?

2. I got it LG, though I would have been driving eratically too if my missus was running after me swinging a golf club around (as rumoured).

3. Did Horne get an opportunity to play 12 for his club side at all this season?

 

[Biffo]

Ah, these old codgers, they can still dream.

Can you please add a "dream of an old codger" to the smileys available for us here?

 

[Lee Grant]

1. Do we really want players being so petulant (as rumoured - I don't know whether this is fact or not - does anyone?) as to demand a position in the national team of their choice or they won't play?

2. I got it LG, though I would have been driving eratically too if my missus was running after me swinging a golf club around (as rumoured).

3. Did Horne get an opportunity to play 12 for his club side at all this season?

1. I wasn't really coming from that point of view, but had I been you would have been right to point out that it was just a rumour. I was just indicating that we have to have him in the backline somewhere and if he does have a preference for the 10 jersey we should keep him there unless and until we have a better solution to the 10/12 issue.

2. To be complete I should have added that Tiger is a good judge of a quick single and can always find the hole.

3. Horne played barely any club rugby this year - or last year either, come to think of it. There was a hoo haa that he wasn't eligible for the Southern Districts Colts Grand Final team this year and I am not 100% sure that he has ever played 1st grade rugby.

 

[Pfitzy]

Can you please add a "dream of an old codger" to the smileys available for us here?

I don't think anyone dreams of an old codger....

 

[spectator]

Can you please add a "dream of an old codger" to the smileys available for us here?

I don't think anyone dreams of an old codger....

Pay that... :thumb

 

[spectator]

Of all the players in the Super 14 it is Robbie Horne that has the most potential as a running 12. I've seen him play there as a schoolboy for NSW Schools, and he could find the gap, give the golden pass and didn't have the worst kicking game either. But we've seen none of that in the S14 because he plays outside centre for the Tahs and the trouble is: he the only specialist 13 they have.

Alas, the chances of spotting him at 12 in the S14 to see how he goes are not great.

Rob Horne at 12 is something I would like to see. I haven't been a fan of his as long as you Lee, but I was a big admirer of his 12 play as a schoolboy, and did say in a post a few years ago that I though he was the long term 12 answer. Hope he gets a go one day.

 

[Lee Grant]

Yeah - I remember that speckie.

One trouble with Horne is he is so quick that coaches tend to pick him in the wider centre spot. His first gig for the Tahs was a few minutes on the wing. You may recall that although Horne played 12 for NSW Schools in 2007 he was picked at 13 for Oz Schools. They had to accommodate both Tapuai and him in the midfield and he was faster than Tapuai.

If he has ever played 12 since he left school I don't know about it.