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Does anyone else fear for TPN's Brain?

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AngrySeahorse

Peter Sullivan (51)
I have been wondering for a while if at times the best interest of the players are not the driving force behind some of the medical decisions being made. When I worked as a medic for games the players used to get a pissed off at me that I would take them from the field and not them them back on if they had been knocked out. I stand by every single one of my decisions and hope that they now realise that it was in their best interests.

I wouldn't take it personally if people react bad to being taken off. I've seen in really bad cases, players crying, screaming, throwing punches, etc but they never remember consciously having a go at the med person. I think it's more a reaction of the trauma. Rest is very important we've got a prop who got two head knocks in one game & she's still getting head aches now after the incident which was last Saturday.

Some players just love Rugby too much for their own good. There is another player who has been told by the neurologist that she can no longer be in the front row due to neck damage. Personally I think she shouldn't play but I understand her reasons for continuing, for many of us the love of the game & the fear of being down due to not being able to play the game we love - far outweighs any serious injury (crazy but that seems to be the mentality).

I am sure they would arrange a lawyer for a cut of the payout, they would stand to make more money from this than from contracts

Crap. Well that sets a dangerous precedent.
 

Richo

John Thornett (49)
There are tests, all players do a base line test before the season starts. The player's reactions after compared to that after a head trauma.

I find it hard to accept that a doctor would knowingly put a patient in danger. Watching TPN wobble was distressing, but I will assume that the doctors managing him, and TPN himself, thought it was less serious than it actually was.

I don't doubt that tests are performed. But I also don't doubt that players want to get back in the game and that there is a huge amount of pressure on doctor's to take a "best case scenario" approach rather than the opposite.
 

suckerforred

Chilla Wilson (44)
I wouldn't take it personally if people react bad to being taken off. I've seen in really bad cases, players crying, screaming, throwing punches, etc but they never remember consciously having a go at the med person. I think it's more a reaction of the trauma. Rest is very important we've got a prop who got two head knocks in one game & she's still getting head aches now after the incident which was last Saturday.

Some players just love Rugby too much for their own good. There is another player who has been told by the neurologist that she can no longer be in the front row due to neck damage. Personally I think she shouldn't play but I understand her reasons for continuing, for many of us the love of the game & the fear of being down due to not being able to play the game we love - far outweighs any serious injury (crazy but that seems to be the mentality).
.

I don't, didn't and wont taken it personally. If I was still doing the job now I would make exactly the same decisions. As your prop would appreciate head injuries are a difficult thing. And the player with the neck injury.... what can I say.

As a person who has been told once that I would not get full feeling back in one arm due to a neck injury and not be able to walk properly again due to a lower back injury I tend to consider carefully what I do now. I can walk, except for the knee and ankle issues, and I do have feeling back in my arm, most of it any way. Injuries weren't due to rugby, or sport - got knocked over in the cattle yards and hurt my neck and hury my back off a motorbike. Happens every where it is how you resond that is the important.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I posted in the game thread that I believe on field protocols are required. As others have said the medicos are under pressure to keep the players on the field. Indeed significant pressure can come from the player themselves.

Fatprop and others have spoken about players undergoing testing etc for consussion and are satisfied apparently with that.

Well the players aren't being tested after the incident on the field. If a boxer is knocked out or is impaired the fight is over, and for good reason. I am a big fan of TPN but playing on obviously effected by a big head knock is not in his best interests or IMO the best interests of the game.

As a suggestion why not take the onus away from the medicos, the Refs (including TMO) can report is they have seen a player effected as we saw TPN last night. They could then direct the player to undergo medical assessment by the match doctor as with a blood bin. If cleared he can come back within the 15 minutes. I would suggest that any player showing the effects such as TPN displayed last night would be an instant failure and removed from play under the protocols I suggested should be in place. As I said if TPN was in the boxing ring the fight would have been stopped.
 

bryce

Darby Loudon (17)
As I said if TPN was in the boxing ring the fight would have been stopped.

I was just about to say that. If a boxer stumbles over while trying to get up after a knock-down the fight is over. Seeing TPN get up and then face-plant after that head knock was pretty sickening.
 

Shiggins

Simon Poidevin (60)
I think about this every time i see him play. I think it's the main reason Moore is still the best hooker for aus. He is a unreliable. The guy needs to learn how to tackle. To be honest saia faianga tackles similar to TPN but he doesn't get concussed every time.


Http://www.youtube.com/shiggins316
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Perhaps he had a variant of footballer's migraine (the rare amigrainous version). o_O

It's incomprehensible that TPN being apparently unconscious then dazed and ataxic after a head knock is not a trigger for substiution and a break from the game.

Flahive is a popular figure and clearly very experienced, and I don't know what is happening behind the scenes. But wtf?

It was Inman treating him.
We dont seem to have advanced beyond the position of permitting the player to make the call despite everything that has bee learned: another suicide in the US this week arguably linked to post concussion syndrome in a lineman.
TPN is an extreme example and he is being done no favours by the Tahs: how ever good his career most of it will be a blur - if that.
The medicos have compromised allegiances and having an ex player doesnt help because he steeped in the machismo of playing with pain and through injury. Maybe we need to go back to the good old days, in a slightly different way, and have independent doctors to deal with head injuries: thumbs down and you're off.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I am sure they would arrange a lawyer for a cut of the payout, they would stand to make more money from this than from contracts

Just throw it about:some will hit the mark and some will stick and you neither know nor care which.
For every player that leaves the game there'll be another to replace him so how does "the agent" lose out? There are always more players than theere are spots.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
You only have to look at bloodgate to see how much pressure some clubs put on doctors and medics to do and say what is in the interests of the club.

Player welfare should be top priority and in cases of concussion, at the highest levels of the game, the call should be made by an independent doctor from a panel approved by the governing body.
 

suckerforred

Chilla Wilson (44)
I've talked before about being involved in the concussion study, having been knocked out a fair few times and having lasting effects from it. whats been said on the issue is right and there are set lengths of time players are required to sit out after testing proves concussion now. there isn't some argument about professional doctors getting players back on the field, its an actual rule for them to follow.

i will say however, the hoopla surrounding TPN on this thread is borderline histeria. Last night was bad, but to suggest that the doctors put him at risk or it was down to his technique is a bit over the top. He doesn't need to give the game away, the doctors arnt in a dimly lit laboratory coming up with ways of punishing him and getting him back on his feet. Unless you were part of the treatment you have no idea if he had any lasting effects whatsoever or if he was fit to continue.

WJ the first time I read this I let it go through to the keeper but now I think that I need to respond.

As to the rules - I appreciate that there are rules, but I think what is being questioned here is if said rules are enough. I can not make a call as to if the rules are being followed or not as I am not completely accross what they are. I would hope that they are, but if that is the case I am back to the question of if they are enough. When I was involved I was working under the ambulance service rules so a) I would have had a bit more training and experience then your average trainer/strapped/manager; b) having seen the results both short and long term of head injuries I have always been cautious; and c) I had a whole other set of rules and regulations and code of conduct to follow. Yes I realise that I will not have had the training that the doctors who are working at Super Rugby level have had, but I then come back to whether or not the rules are sufficient and whether or not the pressure these medicos are getting from other quarters is influencing their judgement, even subconsciously.

With regards to TPN on Saturday night. I could tell from his actions and behaviour sitting in my lounge room 1000's of km's away that he had concussion and should have been removed from the field. And a lot of others could see that there was something up. The player's perspective, at least, needs to be removed from the decision. Why - they are concussed and will not know what is going on, willl not be able to make sound and reasonable decisions, and have a vested interest in continuing to play. My concern is that he was 'assessed' by a medical professional on the field and allowed to continue to play. Yes this could (should) have been because he was fit to play, however I question anyones ability to make such an assessment in a few minutes on the field with pressure from coaches, players and officals for the game to continue. Remove them from the field for 10-15 mins in a blood bin type of situation to allow a couple of reasonably calm sets of observations to be done and then make the decision. The results of a head injury can actually be delayed. I am sure we have all hear stories about players getting a head knock, playing on and then collapsing at the after game drinks. Well I have had to treat them and it is not pretty.

AngrySeahorse mentioned players taking swings at trainers as they were being removed from the field. Yep it does happen. My defensive mechanism was that finely tuned (or highly strung which ever way you want to think about it) I just used to sit them on their arse. Once I started to do the job a lot I used to talk to both teams before each game and the players knew my rules - You lost conciousness you were off, and if I could sit you on your arse without a problem you were off (and I had various ways of putting them down that ment they had to come off). As I said before I hope that all the guys I did yank appreciate that it was for their own good.

You will note that I did not mention the spectators here. That is deliberate as I am sure (hope) that most of us are intelligent enough to realise that an injured player should be given the best medical treatment possible and if that means holding up a game for a short period then so be it. Yes I was not there on Saturday night and did not assess TPN or Jono Jenkins, but surely even you WJ would realise that there was an issue and perhaps, just perhaps, it was not handled as well as it should have been.

As you are all aware this is one of my soapboxes so I am sorry if I am boring the shit out of you all.
 
A

andyq

Guest
Damn straight SFR… a head injury is completely different to just about any other you would pick up playing rugby and you can not just “run it off”

While I’m sure that the medics on the field are never attempting to put players at risk, the situation for assessing a head injury is not five meters behind a ruck with 30 players, 3 referees, a boxful of coaches and tens of thousands of spectators all itching for the play to be restarted.

Just hang on while I find a bigger box for you to stand on…
 
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andyq

Guest
and P.S I too read the article about Junior Seau (the NFL player who committed suicide and asked for his brain to be donated to their head injury research people) and I ask the general question...

who want's to swap that name for TPN? or S. Fiangaa? Or anyone else for that matter.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
an update
Polota-Nau was sent home from training yesterday after suffering a headache. The Wallabies hooker was involved in two heavy collisions with Brumbies centre Pat McCabe in Canberra, the second which forced him from the field in the first half.


"Any time someone gets a knock on the head, irrespective of how minor it might be, we take our time with ensuring they come through all the relevant medical tests," NSW coach Michael Foley said.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
So tah time = about 30 secs


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The evidence with Barnes says otherwise.

We can be cynical and I understand the need and want of players, and the team, to get key units back out there. But they have procedures in place for this stuff and we have to assume they will be followed.

All the news says he is out and will be back when he is healthy ie no head aches and can be passed fit.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
The evidence with Barnes says otherwise.

We can be cynical and I understand the need and want of players, and the team, to get key units back out there. But they have procedures in place for this stuff and we have to assume they will be followed.

All the news says he is out and will be back when he is healthy ie no head aches and can be passed fit.

I'm talking about what happened immediately after the first knock.



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