Brumbies 2014

[flat_eric]

It's likely Pocock will never play at the same level he did before these injuries. He has youth on his side and I'm sure he will be back playing professional rugby in some capacity again, but two ACL injuries to the same knee WILL reduce his physical ability to perform. It's extremely unfortunate because there's no way of telling just how good Pocock could have been. All the signs early on indicated he was on track for a career to rival the all time greats of the game. Let's just hope he gets his head right because it will take a massive effort mentally to get himself back on the field. He seems like a strong character.

 

[ChargerWA]

Absolutely gutted for the bloke. Forget about the rugby, he's a good human being and I wouldn't wish this path on anyone.

 

[qwerty51]

Most likely Butler for this week

Then who's 6 or 8?

 

[tranquility]

I'm not sure about that.

I have had two reconstructions to my right knee, and they were done by the surgeon who's office is next to Peter Myer's who did Davids.

The knee itself, if given enough time for the ligament to develop bloodflow will be fine. Actually it should be stronger that the original ACL. Where you can lose athletic performance is from where they are taking the graft from, which is generally between the patella or hamstring. I am guessing that Peter and Jeremy share the same philosophy and that they would have taken the graft from the hamstring.

On his first injury they would have taken it from the leg that was injured, this time they would have taken it from the other leg.

The hamstring is generally chosen because it is regenerative. So while he may lose a little bit of pace, it should only be negligible especially for Dave as he has never relied on speed as a weapon in his armoury.

Now it's probably more than likely that David has actually partially torn his graft early in his rehab and then exacerbated that tear in a game. The ligament is generally only fragile early in the piece while the graft is taking. If everything has gone correctly there is no way that it should have re-torn 12 months post surgery. The amount of hamstring they place in your knee is three times larger than an ordinary ACL. That is, once it is fully healed it should be stronger.

So while it is an absolute tragedy, it is in no way the end of his career and he will as always he will challenge for that 7 jersey when fit.

 

[Brumbies Guy]

Then who's 6 or 8?

6 Fardy, 8 Mowen and Power at lock

 

[mxyzptlk]

The knee itself, if given enough time for the ligament to develop bloodflow will be fine. Actually it should be stronger that the original ACL. Where you can lose athletic performance is from where they are taking the graft from, which is generally between the patella or hamstring.

That's some good info, but it also leads me to two questions:

1.) If the graft is re-injured in the recovery process, how would it be caught? Is it possible that Pocock is so muscular that his power overcompensated for any graft weakness and instability, thereby masking any minor rupture or re-injury to the graft? Which leads to

2.) What's a good window for recovery to make sure the graft is fully healed? Is 12 months a little short, and something more conservative like 14 or 16 months more reasonable?

I've had ACL and LCL reconstruction (different knees, wrestling and judo), and especially after my LCL, I didn't feel completely stable on it until I had competed for almost a year after the recovery. But after I blew my ACL out in judo, even after the recovery, my LCL knee felt and still feels far more stable than my ACL knee. So just speaking from experience, ACL seems to require more recovery.

(The big difference in my two surgeries: The LCL was woven (grafted) back together and re-attached to the bone using denatured cadaver hip bone tissue, while the ACL was your typical patella graft.)

 

[tranquility]

That's some good info, but it also leads me to two questions:

1.) If the graft is re-injured in the recovery process, how would it be caught? Is it possible that Pocock is so muscular that his power overcompensated for any graft weakness and instability, thereby masking any minor rupture or re-injury to the graft? Which leads to

It's very tricky. You will feel a pain if the graft is torn, however if it is only a partial tear it can be difficult to differentiate from general soreness in the recovery process. Even if you have a feeling that you have tweaked it and you speak with the surgeon it is very difficult to pick up via x-ray and impossible to make an accurate appraisal by manipulation. So the danger is if you create a small tear early in the rehab and don't completely stop training all together, than the tear never recovers.

I believe it takes about three months before the ligament get direct bloodflow, and during this period you are expected to do almost nothing, because without bloodflow the graft can not completely take. Professional athletes are obviously under far more pressure than either you or I were, and therefor perhaps start pushing the graft too hard too soon. No-one takes to the graft exactly the same obviously.

* I have not studied medicine, so all information has been relayed to me by my surgeon. However I have torn and then retorn my acl on my right knee, and gone through the complete rehab twice with a few different physios. It is something that you have to become quite fastidious about, and David would know all of this and a whole lot more. *

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That's some good info, but it also leads me to two questions:

1.) If the graft is re-injured in the recovery process, how would it be caught? Is it possible that Pocock is so muscular that his power overcompensated for any graft weakness and instability, thereby masking any minor rupture or re-injury to the graft? Which leads to

2.) What's a good window for recovery to make sure the graft is fully healed? Is 12 months a little short, and something more conservative like 14 or 16 months more reasonable?

I've had ACL and LCL reconstruction (different knees, wrestling and judo), and especially after my LCL, I didn't feel completely stable on it until I had competed for almost a year after the recovery. But after I blew my ACL out in judo, even after the recovery, my LCL knee felt and still feels far more stable than my ACL knee. So just speaking from experience, ACL seems to require more recovery.

(The big difference in my two surgeries: The LCL was woven (grafted) back together and re-attached to the bone using denatured cadaver hip bone tissue, while the ACL was your typical patella graft.)

Depends too on when you had them done.
I had my first in 87 and my second in 91 (different knees) and the technique and recovery protocol was completely different in just those 4 years.

Its a shocking blow for the guy. The brightside: his career may be longer from having had 2 seasons on the side line.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Loving the ill-informed and doom and gloom comments coming through. E.g. Pocock is getting ACL tears because he is too muscular and bulky as if he's the first player to hit the gym in the history of the game.

For what it's worth, Pocock's physique has gradually developed over time, as opposed to say Ben Mowen and Dave Dennis who both put on around 10kg of muscle in one off-season. Some will remember early in his career, Dennis had a lot of knee troubles, since then he hasn't missed much rugby.

As Oztimmy pointed out too if you followed Pocock's instagram, in addition to seeing that he is probably one of the most boring humans alive clogging your feed with gardening pics, he appears or he at least tries to appear (can't picture him too concerned with portraying himself any different to reality too) as though he focuses heavily on core strength and range of movement exercises. Never seen him make any mention of lifting any heavy weights himself in fact.

The other interesting comment is everybody saying that his best is past him, he will never been the same, etc. I don't know if anybody watches Pocock play, but I certainly don't see a lot of lateral movement and flat out pace from him. He appears to rely solely on strength (especially core strength) and fitness. Can't help but feel if anybody has the game to come back from a couple of ACL tears, he does.

 

[spectator]

Terrible news for Pocock. Others have been through similar or worse and survived and thrived, Ben Mowen being the best example. If Pocock has the will he is bound to as well.

Here's to a full and speedy recovery....

 

[No.8]

Who will move into 7 starting spot and who will be the back up? Would they bring someone like Tim Cree in? Even though he is more a 6/8.

Would they be kicking themselves that they gave the flick to Colby Fainga'a

 

[Brumby Jack]

Who will move into 7 starting spot and who will be the back up? Would they bring someone like Tim Cree in? Even though he is more a 6/8.

Jarrad Butler for this week. I did hear the Brumbies will cast the net to search for a 7.

 

[Ash]

Tragic news for Pocock. Best thing would be to come back ready for next year's season, although I guess he could, in theory, be back on the field in six months. No way he could get up to test level in that amount of time, though.

It's going to be a challenge for the Brumbies, who don't have a real openside on their books following Fainga'a's departure to the Rebels. Guess Butler / Smiler may share the role, but Butler is definitely not a 7, and neither is Smiler, as far as I know.

 

[RugbyReg]

Jarrad Butler for this week. I did hear the Brumbies will cast the net to search for a 7.

and they are allowed to contract other state academy players right? So who's around? Michael Gunn from up here would be a leading candidate I would expect. But (again) we have a few quality 7s playing around up here at the moment.

Anyone from the Sydney comp?

 

[Brumby Jack]

After finally calming down from last night's news, this may have been me last night upon reading the media release about Pocock..

 

[Muttonbird]

Machine work won't replicate the range of motion that free weights will, and I'm not sure if machines or free weights would necessarily replicate the collisions in a match situation (although free weights would be closer).

That's what I mean. Perhaps it would be good to run up a few hills and jump some fences, etc.

 

[Muttonbird]

As Oztimmy pointed out too if you followed Pocock's instagram, in addition to seeing that he is probably one of the most boring humans alive clogging your feed with gardening pics, he appears or he at least tries to appear (can't picture him too concerned with portraying himself any different to reality too) as though he focuses heavily on core strength and range of movement exercises. Never seen him make any mention of lifting any heavy weights himself in fact.

Aha, gardening is very hard on the knees!

 

[en_force_er]

Pocock is one of those genetically gifted people who will always be huge, his brother is a similar shape too.

Sure there was weights in his younger days too, but with his intense focus on perfection one could presume he was getting good knowledge and doing the exercises with good form.

I think the reasons for injury are much more complicated. We could have a MMM situation here, some blokes are really talented and athletic but their bodies just struggle.

 

[tranquility]

and they are allowed to contract other state academy players right? So who's around? Michael Gunn from up here would be a leading candidate I would expect. But (again) we have a few quality 7s playing around up here at the moment.

Anyone from the Sydney comp?

Is he ready to go in your opinion Reg?

 

[qwerty51]

If Hugh Roach isn't contracted to the Tahs (anyone know) he could play 7, been at the Brumbies before.

There's Dave Hickey from Syd Uni, Gordon Broome from Gordon, Jack Dempsey from u20s, Mark Baldwin from Randwick, Boyd Killingworth from Warringah.