Bigger is not always better - well not for the Wallabies.

[disco]

I have no problem with what Cheika came up with at Eden park last Saturday, to beat the All Blacks at Eden park you need to try something a bit different. Unfortunately it didn't come off but I think we learnt that our bigger forward pack was certainly not better.
Some people may disagree but I really see no point in taking Skelton & Palu unless they are there to play against Uruguay only.
Our best team will have Pocock & Hooper starting & playing the entire 80 minutes in the big games & also the match against Fiji will be no walk in the park.
We need 3 genuine jumpers at all times so that would mean that Simmons, Douglas, Horwill & Mumm would fill the locking position with Mumm Fardy & McCalman as our Blindside flanker options in the big matches.

The Pooper combo is our ace & we pick the forward pack around them & unfortunately neither Palu or Skelton compliment the Pooper. I think we still have enough good ball runners amongst the forwards & our smaller pack seems to scrum better also.

 

[disco]

Sorry posted in Matches & not discussion.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I don't have an issue with a monster pack, so long as it's not solely picked on size and leaves us seriously short in other areas. As it stands, the pack that played at EP on the weekend gave up too much in the scrum and lineout for the benefits to outweigh it. Cliffy and Skelton can't start together again IMHO. It might work at Super rugby level when you've JacPot and Dennis who can jump effectively in the lineout, generally smash blokes around the park, as well as scrummage effectively enough. Unfortunately it doesn't work as well at the next level up against a really good team.

I totally agree that our trump card is the dual openside back row, with two guys whose skill sets complement each other beautifully. Add in Fardy who does all that dirty work in tight and McCalman who does the hard carries and we've got an effective unit in our 23. In the second row Simmons and Horwill should start, with Skelton coming on in the last 20 to create some gain line mayhem.

 

[Aussie D]

The other thing with the big units is loss of mobility which really hurt us at Eden Park. If you are constantly being beaten to the break down then you will struggle to retain possession let alone create turnovers.

 

[Braveheart81]

We got far more soundly beaten in the second half when we had a smaller pack on the field.

I think plenty of blame is being levelled based on stereotypes rather than reality.

Our lineout didn't improve in the second half despite having a better pack as far as the lineout is concerned. If you review each lineout loss, most were due to poor execution rather than any disruption from the All Blacks.

No doubt Skelton's workrate needed to be better in the first half. A problem though was that he was replaced by Mumm who didn't have the same physical impact and barely had a better workrate. That was a problem in itself.

 

[Joeleee]

I think often, Skelton is derided because he's so big, so he should be doing what others do, but with more impact. That is, the expectation is unfairly high on him because they want him to do what, i.e. Simmons does, but better and in a more bruising manner, because he's bigger.

That's not to say he should never cop criticism, or look to improve, but if Hooper was Skelton's size, he wouldn't be able to do what Hooper does but with more impact, as part of the reason Hooper can be so mobile is because he is relatively small.

 

[Gnostic]

Its an interesting comment saying that Skelton didn't have an impact when you look at each carry he made he was gang tackled by three players. Where was the support to take the offload we all know he can do or to ensure quick ruck ball to make use of the space created by needing three defenders to tackle him. Yes he didn't make the metres, but I'd say he just wasn't used effectively. Same at the Lineout, he can jump and take lineouts, just put him at 1 or two and move the other stronger jumpers to 4 and 6 etc.

Oz used to be the clever country, but I think we have played dumb for quite a while now.

 

[Sully]

Not having a go at skelton but. Three guys tackle him, we send two guys in to protect the ball, and a halfback and the defensive matchup is 12 to 11.

So unless there is an offload or super quick ruck ball sending three guys to tackle him makes perfect sense.

 

[Gnostic]

Not having a go at skelton but. Three guys tackle him, we send two guys in to protect the ball, and a halfback and the defensive matchup is 12 to 11.

So unless there is an offload or super quick ruck ball sending three guys to tackle him makes perfect sense.

When Skelton was making the big offloads it was in dynamic play, that seems to have been missing as nobody is moving in support to take the offloads so the play becomes static and the opportunity is lost. If you are going play him he has to be used effectively.

In a similar vein I was very critical of Deans in 2011 playing Cooper to play a conservative kick and defend based game plan when that was clearly not his skill set and in the same squad not having a long kicking fullback (Gerrard).

My point is its no use having a player like Skelton in the side if the way the team is going to play is not using those skill sets. Better off selecting differently.

 

[Sully]

When Skelton was making the big offloads it was in dynamic play, that seems to have been missing as nobody is moving in support to take the offloads so the play becomes static and the opportunity is lost. If you are going play him he has to be used effectively.

In a similar vein I was very critical of Deans in 2011 playing Cooper to play a conservative kick and defend based game plan when that was clearly not his skill set and in the same squad not having a long kicking fullback (Gerrard).

My point is its no use having a player like Skelton in the side if the way the team is going to play is not using those skill sets. Better off selecting differently.

I think the players are there but he's not throwing the passes. Or he's not able to throw the pass.

 

[liquor box]

if we stick with the Pooper or Ho-cock combo for the entire game do we also look at bringing Gill as a reserve?

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

If I'm Cheika I'm delighted if Will get's double or triple teamed if he can get a ball away in contact. Heck, if he can bend the line effectively that'll almost do. What we can't have is him one out and static, that doesn't help at all.

 

[disco]

Ok i've read a lot of support for Skelton on here but not Palu, so I assume Palu is gone.
Now can someone please advise our starting 8 with Skelton or pick our finishing 8 with Skelton in it.
Let's say we are picking the finishing 8 for a last 20 minutes against England & the scores a tight 3-6 points either way.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

McCalman would be the obvious choice. He does the dirty yards and can jump in the lineout. Can tackle too.

 

[Train Without a Station]

TBH McCalman isn't a line out jumper the quality of Fardy or Higginbotham though. But I think he will and should be in the 23.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

TBH McCalman isn't a line out jumper the quality of Fardy or Higginbotham though. But I think he will and should be in the 23.

Agree, but he jumps enough for the Force that he's a realistic option at the back.

 

[Groucho]

Ok i've read a lot of support for Skelton on here but not Palu, so I assume Palu is gone.
Now can someone please advise our starting 8 with Skelton or pick our finishing 8 with Skelton in it.
Let's say we are picking the finishing 8 for a last 20 minutes against England & the scores a tight 3-6 points either way.

You should assume nothing. G&GR doesn't pick the team, so the reports of Palu's demise are probably exaggerated.

Despite the theatrical tearing open of shirts, the reality is, as has already been said, the big pack actually did better on the scoreboard than the small pack.

People are using the defeat to unpick the players they habitually blame, regardless of the facts.

My starting 8 would be Sio Moore Kepu Simmons Skelton Fardy Pocock Palu.

My finishing 8 would be Slipper Nau Holmes Simmons Douglas Higginbotham Hooper Pocock

 

[fatprop]

I think the players are there but he's not throwing the passes. Or he's not able to throw the pass.

Our work off the ball is always our issue, Skelton is never going to throw a miracle pass every time, but without in depth support runners every time Skelton can be triple teamed and when he does get his hands clear there is no one there to leverage it.

As to the general tenant of being too big, it will always depend on it's execution. Against teams not playing ball in hand, we need ways to get front foot ball after another kick and a static, set defence.

Typos by SwiftKey, errors in tone by me

 

[Joeleee]

Is McCalman's lineout work that much better than Palu's? I ask that honestly, not as a leading question. I haven't seen much lineout work from him, but I also only watched a handful of Force matches this year. My understanding was that they were both pretty average in that regard.

As for Palu making big carries, I remember reading through this http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/wallabies-by-the-numbers-8/ and being surprised that Palu's strong numbers were more around his tackling and ruck work. I think it's a bit of an old point of view that he's there for his carrying, and that now he's more of a workhorse type player who provides a cool head and experience.

PS: A look at the numbers on lineouts in the above article show that McCalman is better than Palu in lineouts but not by much. Thoughts?

 

[disco]

You should assume nothing. G&GR doesn't pick the team, so the reports of Palu's demise are probably exaggerated.

Despite the theatrical tearing open of shirts, the reality is, as has already been said, the big pack actually did better on the scoreboard than the small pack.

People are using the defeat to unpick the players they habitually blame, regardless of the facts.

My starting 8 would be Sio Moore Kepu Simmons Skelton Fardy Pocock Palu.

My finishing 8 would be Slipper Nau Holmes Simmons Douglas Higginbotham Hooper Pocock

I know we don't pick the actually squad but as far as this discussion goes nobody really mentioned Palu so it seemed we as fans believe he shouldn't be there.
Your starting 8 has 2 genuine jumpers only in Simmons & Fardy I just struggle to see why you are so keen to have either Palu & Skelton start.

We probably see the game from a different perspective but I think Pocock & Hooper are the two best players in the country & they have proven that they work well together so I would go to greater lengths to mould a forward pack around them rather than Skelton.