Australian Teams in ITM Cup

[Hugh Jarse]

It has been suggested that this thread grow its own legs.

The Kiwis have a team in our previously domestic Basketball league, Mungoball Competition, Netball Competition, Diveball Competition, Dodgeball competition etc.

It shouldn't be all one way traffic.

Not entirely sure about the Australian Domestic dodgeball competition having a Kiwi entry! I may have made this up.

I'm not sure there is the sponsorship money around to support this concept, and if this ever got up as an idea, the knock on effect to club level would be potentially catastrophic. - No Wobs, No S15 players, and none of the best of the semi pro players playing Brissie Premier footy or Shute Shield.

Would be almost 2nd grade teams for the top franchises in Shute shield (Easts Uni, Wicks, Woodies, Marlins, etc). Would give the current battlers a fair crack at the Premiership though.

Like the Jonah vs Rupeni thread, this may be another Gaggerland conversation starter to keep us occupied until we celebrate victory in Honkers at the end of the month.

.... And if we were to enter two teams in the ITM cup of our semi pros, who would be in those teams (no current Wallabies allowed) and who would coach?

I am hypothetically basing one team in Brisvegas/Gold Coast and one in Sydney/Canberra?

How do you reckon they would go, and would this knock the bejesus out of the Shute Shield and Brissie Premier competition?

This is a purely hypothetical fishing expedition because I'm pretty sure that the Lords of Darkness would never agree to this.

I think you should take this tangent to it's own thread.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

As long as the S14 exists, no need. The S14 started out as a pre season bat around to the premier comp.

I don't think there is need for more than one australasian club/provincial rugby comp.

 

[en_force_er]

I've been tossing some ideas around in my head of what would be a viable 3rd tier in Australian Rugby for a while but it is in no way similar to this.

There are many reasons why your idea wouldn't work, for starters it would clash with the club rugby grand finals and secondly NZ are looking to downside rather then upsize their competition.

The Aussie rugby system is based around our clubs and I think we should respect that and look for away around it for a true 3rd tier.

 

[RugbyReg]

they used to be out domestic 1 day cricket comp too, but that point adds no value to this discussion.

My apologies.

 

[RugbyFuture]

wouldn't work, same problem as the super 15 and tri nations, we can lose in some way, not enough money involved, they're looking to downsize, etc etc, an ARC is still viable

 

[Scorz]

No room. House full. No vacancy.

NZ rugby has done enough for Aussie rugby over the years too. Current economic needs must, and there is no way the NZRU could justify flying teams Trans-Tasman and not get booted out of their chairs.

 

[en_force_er]

wouldn't work, same problem as the super 15 and tri nations, we can lose in some way, not enough money involved, they're looking to downsize, etc etc, an ARC is still viable

Could you post up that ARC map you had.

I'd like another look and it's relevant to this conversation.

 

[RugbyFuture]

i also emailed it to you, think this is the right one

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

With the expansion of Super Rugby, I don't think it would be needed. The comp is setup around local rivalries now and that fills the need IMHO. If the Saffers were to ever go their own way, then the Trans Tasman comp would be the way to go, with some PI/Japan/maybe North American teams to go with it.

 

[Blue]

New Zealand and South Africa already to an extent prop up Australian rugby with the new Super 15 structure so I can't see why it's the Kiwi's problm that the fat cats ion their fancy St Leonards hideout can't get their collective arse in gear, sort though their politics and create a meaningful comp.

There, I said it. Blast away.

 

[RugbyFuture]

well im now seeing with the split of the super rugby format and the naming of the melbourne rebels that the ARU proposed the structure to build a proper domestic structure up from the super rugby levels (so sort of reducing the level, but not) its all the heinekin cup sorta thing in the end.

especially when you consider if the southern kings get into the super rugby conferance in south africa they're only two off the currie cup in terms of number of teams and so we'll see the ITM cup and currie cup integrate eventually

 

[en_force_er]

well im now seeing with the split of the super rugby format and the naming of the melbourne rebels that the ARU proposed the structure to build a proper domestic structure up from the super rugby levels (so sort of reducing the level, but not) its all the heinekin cup sorta thing in the end.

especially when you consider if the southern kings get into the super rugby conferance in south africa they're only two off the currie cup in terms of number of teams and so we'll see the ITM cup and currie cup integrate eventually

Yeah with the new ITM format they'll only be 2 teams out from their top division as well. The only issue with the integration is that it won't really allow for promotion/relegation.

No international coach wants their star player playing in a 2nd division with players barely making ends meet.

EDIT: Thanks for the map. I've been coming up with ideas in my head for a 2nd tier for a while. Might post something about it tomorrow.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

I know this has no affiliation with an Aussie side in the ITM cup, but I cannot understand for the life of me, why with the new and expanded S15 starting why the Shute Shield does not reinvent itself.. Start later and finish later. Why does it not look at the prospect of Finals series starting in October and finishing late October? There is no footy to speak of on at the time and this would give our Wallabies and S15 stars a chance to push for selection in EOYT with worthwhile games.

This in effect could become the 3rd Tier. I am not sure that you need to loose you tribalism. I just think we need to expand things that make rugby more accessible to the non regular rugby followers. There is not a thing on footy wise in the month of October, is that not an opportunity to gain a foot hold in an other wise barron market.

Then look to grow the game from that base. With a few years of solid support and big sponsors, you could look to expand to Canberra and potential for NSW country side. This way we would get to expose the bush players more. Leave QLD to do the same thing in South East QLD as a pool system not to dissimilar to the New S15 format then play a finals series from there. A north and south conference... Top 2 from each to play off in a NFL style playoff format. No need to change Tribalism and this will promote professionalism within the club ranks in both QLD and NSW.

I think this is the way forward... Not looking to head off shore!

I see a few problems with pushing the Shute Shield back. 1. Many grounds are handed over to their cricket clubs - Uni, Randwick, Manly, Gordon. 2. I actually think that the S15/WBs would not be happy as they want a break after starting trials in January. I think that their game quotas would return and we would see them not be available. 3. This looks like another way to launch an ARC which I would love to watch but just don't support until there is genuine interest and money.

 

[TOCC]

There won't be a Australian side included in the ITM cup, they won't want it, it would be like WA proposing that they introduce the Western Force into the Shute Shield and having teams fly to Perth every weekend. Very little is added to the existing clubs in a competition that already runs at a loss.

How would you negotiate the problem of having practically Super Rugby level teams playing against countie NZ teams?

 

[Slim 293]

i also emailed it to you, think this is the right one

I know it's a hypothetical map...

But why would a "Canberra" club (Queanbeyan) be tied to an Illawarra team?

Geographically speaking that makes absolutely no sense...

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

New Zealand and South Africa already to an extent prop up Australian rugby with the new Super 15 structure so I can't see why it's the Kiwi's problm that the fat cats ion their fancy St Leonards hideout can't get their collective arse in gear, sort though their politics and create a meaningful comp.

There, I said it. Blast away.

Actually, I feel there is a lot of truth in what you say Blue. Our lack of domestic comp has held back our rugby to a degree and we shouldn't be going cap in hand to the Kiwis. As I said earlier though, the Super 15 is a big help and lets face it, we got what we wanted in that deal (as did you Saffers, BTW). I will be a happier fan as a result.

 

[RugbyFuture]

I know it's a hypothetical map...

But why would a "Canberra" club (Queanbeyan) be tied to an Illawarra team?

Geographically speaking that makes absolutely no sense...

Much of the clubs there are in three stages, where the three different stat boxes are in order of expansion. The idea would be to align as many current premier clubs with equality to the new national clubs and then align those national clubs with the super 15 clubs. aligning queanbeyan to illawarra was simply to engage some premier canberra clubs with the illawarra team, in order to give brumbies rugby two sides, so that players don't end up playing for just the brumbies and the canberra team.

 

[Joe Mac]

I think the future of rugby lies in the Super 15 new structure and I think their plan has been very cleverly orchestrated by South Africa.

With the expanded competition, it has almost become three separate competitions between the each 3N's domestic teams with the best battling it out with the best from the other groups in a final series.

This gives each nation the chance to increase the amount of teams competing domestically to go into the finals against the other nations. SA will bring in the southern kings first but i dont think they will stop there. They will keep bringing in teams competing for those final spots.

I think the season will continually expand until the ITM and Curry Cup end of being run more like the Shute Shield and the Super 15 will just be the called the Final 12 or something like that... and only last for a few weeks at the end of the season.

THEN South Africa will be able to finally break away from the Super 15, and take all the TV rights they are entitled to from their new domestic competition. Only sharing the finals at the end of the season.

For South Africa it will a competition like the NRL with a finals series kind of like the champions league in the football at the end of the season...

Could be a very bad thing for Australian rugby...

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Much of the clubs there are in three stages, where the three different stat boxes are in order of expansion. The idea would be to align as many current premier clubs with equality to the new national clubs and then align those national clubs with the super 15 clubs. aligning queanbeyan to illawarra was simply to engage some premier canberra clubs with the illawarra team, in order to give brumbies rugby two sides, so that players don't end up playing for just the brumbies and the canberra team.

Your model seems to spread things a little thin. What Joe Mac states regarding South Africa and the likely growth of the conferences is entirely plausible and what we need is a viable national competition to 1) Develop new franchises for Super Rugby .i.e. build squads, sponsorship and fanbases. and 2) build a demand for Rugby in the wider community. To do this we need a competition at as high a quality as possible. Even if such a theoritical Chmapionship were to ever eventuate it should never really grow beyond maybe 10 or 12 teams to ensure the overall standard remains high.

Interestingly enough reading a link on another site regarding the ratings for the season launch of the NBL it appears One HD is quite pleased with what could be only described as modest ratings (Kings first home game average only 53,000 with a peak if 150,000). No one could tell me we could not beat that. If there is anyone even linked to the ARU out there take notice of this. It goes to prove One is desperately looking for local content and are willing to back it. We need to look at this avenue sooner rather than later.

 

[rustycruiser]

As I said earlier though, the Super 15 is a big help and lets face it, we got what we wanted in that deal (as did you Saffers, BTW). I will be a happier fan as a result.

Pray tell?