Australian Schoolboys & National Championships 2017

[Inside Shoulder]

I assume you guest, he is a very good player, clearly you haven't seen him play much.
I see you are an Easts follower, he is playing for the Easts 1st colts this year, perhaps go and watch them.

I have.

 

[WLF]

I have.

Well the I must say, having spoken to many rugby people of knowledge, you are the 1st to have a negative position to him.
He can do some things as you say, all players have some things they can fix, but I have also seen him destroy some good 1st XV sides,perhaps keep watching.
Otherwise lots of people are wrong and you are right, but I don't think you are that dogmatic.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Well the I must say, having spoken to many rugby people of knowledge, you are the 1st to have a negative position to him.
He can do some things as you say, all players have some things they can fix, but I have also seen him destroy some good 1st XV sides,perhaps keep watching.
Otherwise lots of people are wrong and you are right, but I don't think you are that dogmatic.

He’s playing against blokes who are either nearly as good as him or better. He dropped the first 5 passes that came his way last week and the well organised Gordon backs happily showed him the outside. I doubt he threw one pass across the front of his body all day.
Often happens to dominant schoolboys that they are unused to playing against blokes who all have some idea what they’re doing.

 

[WLF]

He’s playing against blokes who are either nearly as good as him or better. He dropped the first 5 passes that came his way last week and the well organised Gordon backs happily showed him the outside. I doubt he threw one pass across the front of his body all day.
Often happens to dominant schoolboys that they are unused to playing against blokes who all have some idea what they’re doing.

No doubt that this is a bigger arena than 1st XV but I suggest you give him more than the first 2 weeks, in a new world, to adapt and show his wares. There are probably numerous new colt boys finding their way at the moment.

Who won today between Gordon 1st colts and Easts.
The Randwick 1st colts beat Warringah 87-10.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

No doubt that this is a bigger arena than 1st XV but I suggest you give him more than the first 2 weeks, in a new world, to adapt and show his wares. There are probably numerous new colt boys finding their way at the moment.

Who won today between Gordon 1st colts and Easts.
The Randwick 1st colts beat Warringah 87-10.

Gordon....hence my digging out this thread to tell his boosters how he’s going.
He needs to learn quick smart.
A bra took no time - although the highlanders did score a pushover.

 

[WLF]

Gordon..hence my digging out this thread to tell his boosters how he’s going.
He needs to learn quick smart.
A bra took no time - although the highlanders did score a pushover.

OK, but I think after 2 games you are going a bit hard, sounds like you haven't calmed down after the loss.

Ask many people, he is a game winner.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

OK, but I think after 2 games you are going a bit hard, sounds like you haven't calmed down after the loss.

Ask many people, he is a game winner.

There were trials too

 

[WLF]

There were trials too

Really? you are now including trials? which by name says it all.

I strongly suspect I have seen him play many more times than you.
He was instrumental in heavy defeats last year against Joeys, Knox, Riverview and Newington,and the South Port school (QLD) who I think won the GPS in QLD last year, along with the remaining CAS schools, scoring numerous tries busting through and giving the poor full backs an absolute nightmare.

Suggest to talk to a few others to verify what I saw.

 

[Quick Hands]

Really? you are now including trials? which by name says it all.

I strongly suspect I have seen him play many more times than you.
He was instrumental in heavy defeats last year against Joeys, Knox, Riverview and Newington,and the South Port school (QLD) who I think won the GPS in QLD last year, along with the remaining CAS schools, scoring numerous tries busting through and giving the poor full backs an absolute nightmare.

Suggest to talk to a few others to verify what I saw.

What you saw was no doubt a young man who was very dominant at schoolboy level.

Not all schoolboy stars succeed at senior level though (I'm talking in general terms, not about this young man).

Sometimes an adjustment is necessary as what worked in school or age group rugby doesn't always work in senior rugby. Those who are willing and able to make the adjustment will usually go well.

Hope it works out for the lad.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Really? you are now including trials? which by name says it all.

I strongly suspect I have seen him play many more times than you.
He was instrumental in heavy defeats last year against Joeys, Knox, Riverview and Newington,and the South Port school (QLD) who I think won the GPS in QLD last year, along with the remaining CAS schools, scoring numerous tries busting through and giving the poor full backs an absolute nightmare.

Suggest to talk to a few others to verify what I saw.

Judging players by reputation is one of the biggest problems with talent identification in this country

 

[WLF]

What you saw was no doubt a young man who was very dominant at schoolboy level.

Not all schoolboy stars succeed at senior level though (I'm talking in general terms, not about this young man).

Sometimes an adjustment is necessary as what worked in school or age group rugby doesn't always work in senior rugby. Those who are willing and able to make the adjustment will usually go well.

Hope it works out for the lad.

Yes agree, I think that's a more appropriate comment then previous.

 

[WLF]

Judging players by reputation is one of the biggest problems with talent identification in this country

Agree but I guess the reason people get reputations is because they have done something good, it's not just myth.

 

[Up the Guts]

There's always a number of non Schoolboys or Barbarians who by the time Colts comes around end up usurping players who were picked ahead of them at schoolboy level. I see James Ramm is in the Australian u20s side and I saw him playing in both the Joeys 3rds and 2nds in 2015 against Shore. Also Bailey Kuenzle (Newington 2016) only made GPS 2nds in 2016 and was only called into one of the NSW Schoolboy Squads as a reserve if I recall correctly but is now playing Shute Shield and in the Aus u20s side.

It's not the be all and end all if a player doesn't make their school's 1st XV, let alone State or National side.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Agree but I guess the reason people get reputations is because they have done something good, it's not just myth.

There is no objective “good” it all depends on the context and that requires more understanding than watching a kid make breaks. Once he steps out into the real world and plays people who choose to be playing rugby it’s what he does when he doesn’t make breaks that counts.

 

[WLF]

There is no objective “good” it all depends on the context and that requires more understanding than watching a kid make breaks. Once he steps out into the real world and plays people who choose to be playing rugby it’s what he does when he doesn’t make breaks that counts.

Yep no argument about that, my point was you seemed to target him after a small number of games.
As you say let's see how he and others adapt throughout the season, and then there will be a better feel.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Yep no argument about that, my point was you seemed to target him after a small number of games.
As you say let's see how he and others adapt throughout the season, and then there will be a better feel.

Primarily because of the crap you and other Waverley supporters went on with last year.

 

[WLF]

Primarily because of the crap you and other Waverley supporters went on with last year.

That's an unfortunate response, let's move on.

 

[sidelineview]

There's always a number of non Schoolboys or Barbarians who by the time Colts comes around end up usurping players who were picked ahead of them at schoolboy level. I see James Ramm is in the Australian u20s side and I saw him playing in both the Joeys 3rds and 2nds in 2015 against Shore. Also Bailey Kuenzle (Newington 2016) only made GPS 2nds in 2016 and was only called into one of the NSW Schoolboy Squads as a reserve if I recall correctly but is now playing Shute Shield and in the Aus u20s side.

It's not the be all and end all if a player doesn't make their school's 1st XV, let alone State or National side.

That's true.
Two players named in this years Aussie U20s squad: Hugh Margin and Josh Kemeny played for NSW1 in 2016 but missed out on being selected for either Aussie Schoolboy team.
NSW2s beat NSW1 in the Final that year and got a good representation of players selected for the two National squads. The Final result would have played a hand in some of the fancied NSW1s players missing out.

Interestingly, the last time NSW2s defeated NSW1 in a Final was 1977 when Mark and Glen Ella played for NSW2 while Gary Ella made the 1s team. All three toured Japan & Europe with the Aussie Schoolboys team 77/78 and received rave reviews for their entertaining style of running rugby.
Wally Lewis who went on to become a Rugby League Immortal struggled to make the team on that tour.

So as you say, while it should be highly valued, selection in schoolboy rep teams isnt the be all and end all. There'll be plenty more examples.

As an aside 10 players from Matraville High made either the NSW1s or 2s team in 1977.
Now it's a league school.

 

[sidelineview]

Gordon..hence my digging out this thread to tell his boosters how he’s going.
He needs to learn quick smart.
A bra took no time - although the highlanders did score a pushover.

He's like plenty of other young players: he's a work in progress.
He possesses a lot of natural talent; let's hope he doesnt lose his natural flair and confidence because he can turn a game in the blink of an eye, and he's strong defensively; but he does need to improve his passing game without completely losing his ability for giving one handed passes.
The good thing is, being a former Junior Rooster, he decided to play rugby instead of league.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That's true.
Two players named in this years Aussie U20s squad: Hugh Margin and Josh Kemeny played for NSW1 in 2016 but missed out on being selected for either Aussie Schoolboy team.
NSW2s beat NSW1 in the Final that year and got a good representation of players selected for the two National squads. The Final result would have played a hand in some of the fancied NSW1s players missing out.

Interestingly, the last time NSW2s defeated NSW1 in a Final was 1977 when Mark and Glen Ella played for NSW2 while Gary Ella made the 1s team. All three toured Japan & Europe with the Aussie Schoolboys team 77/78 and received rave reviews for their entertaining style of running rugby.
Wally Lewis who went on to become a Rugby League Immortal struggled to make the team on that tour.

So as you say, while it should be highly valued, selection in schoolboy rep teams isnt the be all and end all. There'll be plenty more examples.

As an aside 10 players from Matraville High made either the NSW1s or 2s team in 1977.
Now it's a league school.

How much do you actually know?
Kemeny did his ACL in the school championships.