Australia v Italy, Suncorp Stadium, 24th June 2017 @ 3:00pm

[amirite]

Higgers at 6 and Timani at 8 would've made so much sense.

Even switch them and it still would've made sense.

 

[Dave Beat]

Just seen the bench, maybe some one can give me a hand.
Dempsey - how many games has he started for the Tah's this year = 4.
Hanigan - at the start of the year he wasn't the Tah's first choice 6.

Sorry whilst i agree on development and bringing players / youth through - i've seen players out there that compete for these positions.

 

[Dave Beat]

Higgers at 6 and Timani at 8 would've made so much sense.

Even switch them and it still would've made sense.

At least i can climb off the floor and read a bit of common sense.

 

[dru]

Higgers at 6 and Timani at 8 would've made so much sense.

Even switch them and it still would've made sense.

6: Fardy
8: Higgers
7: no guess rqd

20: Timani

But you know, it's just an "out" year to the RWC so there's no real need to take the test seriously. It's not as if fans are dropping off or anything.

I'll give Cheika the front rows x2 though remain confused as to why it has taken this long.

Others can argue the out-centre matter.

 

[Dave Beat]

6: Fardy
8: Higgers
7: no guess rqd

20: Timani

But you know, it's just an "out" year to the RWC so there's no real need to take the test seriously. It's not as if fans are dropping off or anything.

I'll give Cheika the front rows x2 though remain confused as to why it has taken this long.

Others can argue the out-centre matter.

like that one 2

 

[amirite]

6: Fardy
8: Higgers
7: no guess rqd

20: Timani

But you know, it's just an "out" year to the RWC so there's no real need to take the test seriously. It's not as if fans are dropping off or anything.

I'll give Cheika the front rows x2 though remain confused as to why it has taken this long.

Others can argue the out-centre matter.

I actually thing there's a logic to not picking Fardy. No issue here.

The issue is the lack of consistency in that logic when you then go and pick Horne.

 

[wamberal]

Let us be charitable and assume that this is a trial game. That's the only thing I can think of to explain some of the selections.


If Timani starts, we simply have to have a blindside who is a genuine lineout jumper. That rules Dempsey out, for one.

 

[Micheal]

Let us be charitable and assume that this is a trial game. That's the only thing I can think of to explain some of the selections.


If Timani starts, we simply have to have a blindside who is a genuine lineout jumper. That rules Dempsey out, for one.

Just quickly - I don't think anyone that has watched Dempsey play through highschool, club footy at Gordon, at NRC level or at Super Rugby level would agree with you. In essence, no one that has actually watched him play would agree with you.

He's a pretty fantastic lineout exponent with the agility and build to be incredible. At six that'd be a factor in his selection.

Moving on.


I'm 99% sure Cheika has said something to the effect that these games are simply to provide clarity around selections for the RC and that the team / squad chosen doesn't reflect the full strength squad moving forward.

I firmly believe that for the first RC test we'll see Higgers / Hooper / Timani, but for now Cheika is simply trying to find or develop a long-term solution for the Wallabies at 6.

For all the talk of Scott Fardy, he had a pretty shonky season last year where he fell out of the XV for form and (on-field) discipline. Yes he's had a decent season this year, but I don't think his form has warranted automatic selection, ESPECIALLY given Cheika's rationale, ESPECIALLY given the fact that Fardy is 32 years old two years out of a RWC.

Yes Moore's inclusion is somewhat paradoxical at age 34 now (especially because he looks like a machine that hasn't been oiled in some years), but he is the squad captain. I expect that he'll be phased out in the next 12-18 months, but his leadership is clearly valued. Fardy's, on the other hand, isn't. Having seen his interaction with Brumbies teammates throughout this season (particularly Sam Carter, his captain) I can understand why.

Moving to Higgenbotham. Yes he's been left out of the 23 but at age 30 and with 34 caps he's hardly an unknown. On the other hand, Hanigan, Dempsey and Hardwick all are. In the case of the latter bunch, a gold jersey or two will also motivate them far more than an extra test to Higgers will.

On Timani, he's missed most of the Super season through injury or suspension. Cheika made the comment that when he entered the camp he wasn't match-fit, yet he believes that he is now. This weekend will be a good opportunity for him to build that match fitness and really stake a claim for his position in the Gold backrow (as I believe he did last season).

Finally, on Horne, this is a bit trickier. From the franchises the options were:

1. Kuridrani - experienced campaigner at age 26 years old with 73 Brumbies caps and 30+ Wallabies caps.

2. Horne - experienced campaigner at 27 years old with 101 Waratahs caps and 30+ Wallabies caps. Wallabies vice captain last season.

3. Kerevi - injured, but frontrunner for selection due to form.

4. English - spent most of his professional career on the wing, untried at Wallaby level and with defensive problems.

5. Rona - first year in Rugby Union.

From that very shallow analysis, Horne and Kuridrani seem to be the only two options. Kuridrani, whilst having a good start to the season, tapered off in form towards the latter end of Super and, as I noted in my initial reactions to last weekends game, I thought he had an ugly evening against Scotland. In comparison, Hornes had a pretty steady season in a pretty poor Waratahs team.

Based upon that I can semi-understand his dropping, and Horne provides a bit of leadership in the backline. Perhaps Cheika also wants to get a bit of game time under Hornes belt, given the discrepancy in the time the two have played over the last 18 months due to injury etc.

Either way, I'm pretty happy with the team. Stoked to see Smith on the bench - he can provide some real go-forward with his ballrunning. Our two front rows are pretty promising.

Likewise keen to see Arnold get a starting berth, and I'd like to see Cooper, Hodge and Powell get some more game time this weekend.

With this and the Lions test, bring on the weekend!

 

[upthereds#!]

Just worried about this obsession cheika has with these utility tyros with high work rate. It's great, and you need at least 1 (Mcmahon). But why invest in another one in Dempsey, and another lightweight newbie in Hanigan AND another 7 (to make it 3rd behind poey and hoops) who is not really a 7 in hardwick. When you only are picking 1 set piece man who happens to have silky ridiculous skills in Higs (gets dropped) and 1 boulder shifter in Timani.

Just a bit of an inbalance to me. When Pocock and Mcmahon return, it'll be the Hardwicks and Dempseys who will make room for them - so whyyy drop a guy like Higs who you would need if Timani or Hanigan was to fall over. Starting Dempsey or Hardwick as a 6 or 8 in test rugby in TRC would be a mess, as it would even with Mchahon starting with Pooper. Just an incredible inbalance.

Blind Freddy could see that starting Robertson, Carter, Hanigan and Higs all together with Hardwick on the bench was going to leave us SERIOUSLY underpowered. Cheika thinks you can purely will yourself to physical dominance. I'm sorry, but at Test level, will alone is not enough. This isn't super rugby - Hanigan is not going to be a ball running tyro. Dempsey won't create big dents in defensive lines. Drops Higs? Seriously? How could he EVER do what he is best at when he had to help cover the phsyical deficiencies, though hard as they try, of a lightweight Carter and developing Hanigan.

All the way to the WC
6. Hanigan
6/8. Higs
8. Timani
7/8. Pocock
7.Hoops
6/7/8. Mcmahon

 

[Ruggo]

It is disappointing not to see Tui get game time in these tests.

 

[upthereds#!]

so emotional. Then Michael comes along with LOGIC!.....no true fan relies on logic....

 

[dru]

Let us be charitable and assume that this is a trial game. That's the only thing I can think of to explain some of the selections.


If Timani starts, we simply have to have a blindside who is a genuine lineout jumper. That rules Dempsey out, for one.

Why? I suspect we are kidding ourselves to think that giving Cheika more charity can help anything at all.

As you say, It's not like we can pretend to not need improvement in the line out, or in tight. I quite like Timani at this level - he should have featured from the outset. On the pine.

 

[dru]

so emotional. Then Michael comes along with LOGIC!...no true fan relies on logic..

The same logic would have an engaged rugby follower and player in Brisbane, with similar age to the new guys hitting their straps at Reds and say the same thing about Korczyk. How many games/how many minutes of rugby has Dempsey played in 2017?

There's a logic there for sure. Just nothing that explains the current escalation into the WBs.

 

[Dave Beat]

Just quickly - I don't think anyone that has watched Dempsey play through highschool, club footy at Gordon, at NRC level or at Super Rugby level would agree with you. In essence, no one that has actually watched him play would agree with you.

He's a pretty fantastic lineout exponent with the agility and build to be incredible. At six that'd be a factor in his selection.

Moving on.

No No No - please don't move to quickly.

I've seen quite a bit of him.

How many Soup games has he started this year?

He has to develop more (allot more) to become a test player.

 

[Micheal]

The same logic would have an engaged rugby follower and player in Brisbane, with similar age to the new guys hitting their straps at Reds and say the same thing about Korczyk. How many games/how many minutes of rugby has Dempsey played in 2017?

There's a logic there for sure. Just nothing that explains the current escalation into the WBs.

Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I think Dempsey has a lot more upside that Korczyk and, whilst he's had a limited season due to injury, he did have a great season last year (the same can't be said about Korczyck - maybe he'll get picked next year?).

From my reading, that seems to be a widely held viewpoint as well.

No No No - please don't move to quickly.

I've seen quite a bit of him.

How many Soup games has he started this year?

He has to develop more (allot more) to become a test player.

How many Super games has Timani started this year? There are other factors outside of Super starts / form from the current season that are considered within the selection process.

My comment was also directly in regard to his lineout ability. I don't think he's in frame for a 23 spot against SA / the ABs / England but I think a cap against Italy will do him good.

...as I said.

 

[Dave Beat]

Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but I think Dempsey has a lot more upside that Korczyk and, whilst he's had a limited season due to injury, he did have a great season last year (the same can't be said about Korczyck - maybe he'll get picked next year?).

From my reading, that seems to be a widely held viewpoint as well.


How many Super games has Timani started this year? There are other factors outside of Super starts / form from the current season that are considered within the selection process.

My comment was also directly in regard to his lineout ability. I don't think he's in frame for a 23 spot against SA / the ABs / England but I think a cap against Italy will do him good.

.as I said.

Not sure why you selected Timani.
I didn't debate his line out ability.
The back row needs the right balance - isolating and comparing players is a hard measure in the back row - 2 of our strongest Hoops and Poey, play a different style of game.

I just believe there are better 6's and 7's out there than him playing Soup, and premier rugby.
I do believe he's carried some of his rock star school boy cred into adult rugby without proving himself - just my take on it.

 

[Twoilms]

All of these teams have been experimental, inclusions like Dempsey, Hardwick etc are experimental in nature rather than conservative. Powell, guys 19...

 

[tragic]

I don't think this side is any better or worse than the one that ran on against Scotland.
Just different.
If foley makes his kicks and genia doesn't have another shocker we'll be fine.
Wouldn't be my lineup but it'll do.

 

[fatprop]

I don't think this side is any better or worse than the one that ran on against Scotland.
Just different.
If Hooper allows foley to make his kicks and genia doesn't have another shocker we'll be fine.
Wouldn't be my lineup but it'll do.

fixed

 

[dru]

@Michael - I've got no doubt on your recommendation that Dempsey has a high side on his potential. But FFS in the WBs right now?

Cognitive dissidence big time.