Aussie Rugby stocks

[disco]

Just been watching the the 2008 Bledisloe games 1,3 & 4 & I still think these were two games we lost due to lack of depth or maybe lack of faith from Deans.

I can't see any reason in 2009 that we cannot pick 7 subs who can come on & do the business.

So off the top of my head I'm gonna pick from best to next in each of Aussie players that I believe can do the business at test level.

1.Benn Robinson-Ben Alexander-Greg Holmes
2. Stephen Moore-TPN
3. Al Baxter-Guy Shepherdson
4 & 5. James Horwill-Mark Chisolm-Nathan Sharpe-Tom Hockings
6. Hugh McMeniman-Dean Mumm-Rocky Elsom
7.George Smith-David Pocock-Phil Waugh
8.Richard Brown-Wycliff Palu
9. Luke Burgess-Ben Lucas
10.Barnes-Cooper-Beale
12. Giteau.
11 & 14. Tuqiri-Ioane-Hynes-Turner
13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)-Mortlock-Cross
15.Drew Mitchell-Cameron Shepherd-SNK


Areas of concern are Hooker, tighthead, #8, halfback & inside centre.

Hooker- You could play Hardman or Freier if desperate but if you were chasing a game with 20 minutes to play then you'd need more impact than they could offer.

Tighthead- We'll need a better scarfie I know sweet FA about props.

#8-Could shift George Smith & start Pocock I'd be alright with that or even Elsom could run at 8.

Halfback- Even Lucas is a stab on potential than actually proven test record, same as the hooker spot could play Sheehan or another but no real standouts.

Inside centre- Really not to bad as Tahu & Rob Horne could step up this season & Mortlock can always shift in.

 

[formeropenside]

Aaaah, disco, but the trouble is when you add injuries into the mix things get a bit skinny in any position, perhaps save LHP.

Hooker is an example: Moore is clearly the no.1 rake in the country by a fair way. No.2 is a bit more problematic, with TPN and Freier each offering a very different style of play, and to be honest, either of those could easily have a poor season and play themself out of contention, TPN if his lineout throwing is poor, and Freier if his running game and scrummaging is ineffective.

So say Moore is injured, and one of TPN or Freier has played themself into club rugby. We are left with one of them starting, and who is on the bench? Is it perennial reliable journeyman Hardman (who may not even hold a spot for Qld) or McIsaac from WA? Will Fainga'a make an impact, will a young player like Josh Holmes or Hanson suddenly step up out of nowhere?

I know you said thats a weak spot - and I agree - but something similar can happen in any position no matter how well stocked you appear, if injuries fall the wrong way - remember 2005, the year of 5 flyhlaves for Qld, and then 2007, the year of about 10 props: remembering that Tom Court had just gone overseas, Pete Nuimata got homesick, and Mathison realised his neck would never come good.

All you can do is cross your fingers in respect of injuries and hope for the best. Our first choice 22 is pretty good, I think, its the 22-32 that gets a bit iffy, especially in areas like the tight 5.

 

[disco]

FOP,
Yeah there is always injuries but every year there is also someone new, I could have thrown names like Staniforth & JOC (James O'Connor) into the mix aswell they have both played test rugby.

I think our depth is a lot better than previous years especially with having so many versatile players.

 

[naza]

Not sure what you mean to be honest. I thought our tactics & technique let us down. We simply made more errors than the ABs. So I see the problem as a lack of clinical execution rather than dynamic impact.

Plus your reserves are typically fulcrum positions. TPN is the perfect example. Rather than changing momentum with his freak athleticism, his awful lineout work often brings our attempted comebacks to a halt. Its why we're seeing Moore playing 78 minutes.

 

[Scarfman]

I reckon - as a rule - that your forwards need a breather but your backs need combinations. So, plan to replace your forwards, but plan to keep your backs all on except for injury or suckiness.

 

[naza]

I reckon - as a rule - that your forwards need a breather but your backs need combinations. So, plan to replace your forwards, but plan to keep your backs all on except for injury or suckiness.

So you think Eddie Jones & John Connnolly were correct in rarely substituting George Gregan ?

 

[Scarfman]

I reckon - as a rule - that your forwards need a breather but your backs need combinations. So, plan to replace your forwards, but plan to keep your backs all on except for injury or suckiness.

 

[Scotty]

I agree to an extent Scarfman, but the odd impact back can also make a difference.

eg we start with Barnes at 10, but are losing by 15 with 20 to go, then we take the chance and bring a more creative Cooper or Beale on. Or bring an AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) off the bench for a tiring (and ageing) Mortlock.

But if we are up in the game, then no need to change, except, as you say for injury or suckiness.

 

[Lindommer]

I reckon - as a rule - that your forwards need a breather but your backs need combinations. So, plan to replace your forwards, but plan to keep your backs all on except for injury or suckiness.

So you think Eddie Jones & John Connnolly were correct in rarely substituting George Gregan?

I woud've substituted Gregan at the 0 minute mark, if not before.

 

[disco]

Not sure what you mean to be honest. I thought our tactics & technique let us down. We simply made more errors than the ABs.

I think those errors came from players being exhausted & run off thier feet, in Brisbane straight after the Horwill try we started to smash the Ab's up until the Elsom/Cross error & a simple gifted try to Woodcock as Sharpe didn't bother to drift onto Conrad Smith.

Even though the Abs had just scored a try Henry still went to the bench & brought on Weepu, Tialata & Donald who all made a difference.

I reckon - as a rule - that your forwards need a breather but your backs need combinations. So, plan to replace your forwards, but plan to keep your backs all on except for injury or suckiness.

So a 5-2 split on the bench everytime? With versatile backs like Barnes, Gits & AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) I think it's a good option.

 

[Scarfman]

With versatile backs like Sharpe and Chisholm, you mean. If we ever lose a 13 in a game no-one will even notice.

 

[disco]

With versatile backs like Sharpe and Chisholm,

Fortunately those two have started to play like real tight 5 forwards especially Chisolm who had a great spring tour.

Sharpe has improved but he still did like to swan a bit out wide.

 

[Lindommer]

Here's my two bob's worth for a 2009 Wallaby squad. Some players are selected for more than one position (but not 13 for Sharpe!).

1. Robinson, Alexander, Holmes. Not too many problems here, other than Holmes staying uninjured.
2. Moore, TPN. Not much has changed, TPN's throwing still hit and miss. This year will be the test of Foley's coaching skills with a full campaign to fix up TPN's radar allied with Vickerman's absence for the Tahs. I'd like to know how TPN can throw well for the Tahs but shit for the Wobblies.
3. Baxter, Shepherdson. Bit thin here, Oz rugby desperately needs backup, a major chance for Ma'afu to step up. All Oz teams need to train LHPs to play THP.
4/5. Sharpe, Horwill, Chisholm, MMM, Mumm. Sharpe and Chisholm grabbed their opportunities with both hands last year to give us much-needed depth in the second row.
6. Mumm, MMM, Elsom (if he returns). Mumm came on strongly last year and should be one of the first picked for the Wobblies. Playing second row for the Tahs not to count against him.
7. Smith, Pocock, Waugh. The Orc should start thinking of a post-Super gig.
8. Palu, Brown. Be nice to see Houston have a good year and come back on the radar. Hoiles needs to pack on a few kgs.
9. Burgess, Holmes/Lucas/Valentine. Oz rugby's paying the price for hanging on to Gregan for far too long with no succession plan in place. Other scrummies must develop to put pressure on Burgess, who needs to improve to keep his spot.
10. Giteau, Barnes, Cooper, Beale. I still don't know if Gits and Barnes are better suited at 10 or 12. Deans' call, that's what they pay him for.
11/14. Hynes, Tuqiri, Ioane, Mitchell, Turner. No problems here, one of our best positions last year.
12. Barnes, Giteau, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Staniforth. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s performance at IC against the BaaBaas was a standout for me. Staniforth never lets his team down when he gets a run in the 12 jumper. With the surfeit of talented young five-eighths around Australia some of them should seriously think about a move to inside centre.
13. Mortlock, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Cross. Is this the year Morty's body finally breaks?
15. Shepherd, Mitchell, SNK. A shame the first two choices both play for the Force. Turner should consider 15 in the long term.

To summarise:

Oz rugby has major work to do in the front row, but that's nothing new. Wouldn't it be nice to see old lags like Andrew Blades, Ben Darwin and Topo Rodriguez running prop schools?

No Tahu until we're conviced his body's not going to fall apart and he can read a game of rugby. On the paddock that is, not on a quiz sheet.

No Rabbit O'Connor. I honestly don't know what Rabbit's best position is as, for me,his lack of size rules him out of inside centre and full back. He reminds me of that stellar season Tim Atkinson had for the Brumbies all those years ago, and the same questions were asked. Rugby players this size SHOULD be advised to head for the half's spot.

 

[Scotty]

My list is slightly different - here are the players that I would like to step up to put pressure on the encumbents, and hopefully develop towards world class.

1. Alexander
2. TPN
3. Edwards
4/5 ?
6. ?
7. Pocock
8. Houston
9. Lucas
10. Cooper & Beale
11. Ioane
12. O' Connor
13. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)
14. Turner
15. ?

 

[fatprop]

THP: Dunning will be around the edges by test time and is better than Sheperdson after one season of THP and Edwards may be a smokey, Ma'afu maybe if he can get fit and stay disciplined.

LHP: Kepu is expected to be back before the end of the S14

Lock: Kimlin may be in the mix as well

Hooker: Will Frieir continue to be third choice or will a youngling be given a role?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

No Rabbit O'Connor. I honestly don't know what Rabbit's best position is as, for me,his lack of size rules him out of inside centre and full back. He reminds me of that stellar season Tim Atkinson had for the Brumbies all those years ago, and the same questions were asked. Rugby players this size SHOULD be advised to head for the half's spot.

I agree. I have been a bit quiet on the JOC (James O'Connor) saga lest I be labelled a heretic or nayesayer but I have not seen anything that tells me he is destined for greatness outside 10. Mind you, he is/was a dynamic 10 at Nudgee and I feel that may be his place.

 

[Biffo]

We should add Horne to the contending centres, preferably at 12.

I hear whispers that Ben Alexander has been doing a lot of training as THP. Can anyone confirm or refute?

 

[fatprop]

We should add Horne to the contending centres, preferably at 12.

I hear whispers that Ben Alexander has been doing a lot of training as THP. Can anyone confirm or refute?

I would prefer to see Alexander work at LHP, he got mullered in France

 

[Lindommer]

No Rabbit O'Connor. I honestly don't know what Rabbit's best position is as, for me,his lack of size rules him out of inside centre and full back. He reminds me of that stellar season Tim Atkinson had for the Brumbies all those years ago, and the same questions were asked. Rugby players this size SHOULD be advised to head for the half's spot.

I agree. I have been a bit quiet on the JOC (James O'Connor) saga lest I be labelled a heretic or nayesayer but I have not seen anything that tells me he is destined for greatness outside 10. Mind you, he is/was a dynamic 10 at Nudgee and I feel that may be his place.

I've seen Rabbit play only once, when Oz Schoolboys beat NZ at Hunters Hill in October 2007. He was dynamic when he came off the reserves bench (help me, Lee, I can't remember for which position), the Kiwis didn't know where to look when he got the pill or which way he went. They had a bit of difficulty laying a hand on him, somewhat unusual for Kiwis. But if he's going to chance his arm in the number 10 jumper he'll have to go to the back of a very long queue as at the moment Oz rugby's blessed with a large number of talented young five-eighths.

Recently, Lee pointed out to us here on TYS the pitfalls of having breadth rather than depth for any position. It may be well and good for Oz rugby to be "blessed with a large number of talented young five-eighths", but if none of them develop into world beaters all the effort cultivating that young talent is for nought. Some of that young talent will drift off to Europe or Japan (or to the USA in Mike Hercus' case) the next few years as other Oz five-eighths have over the last decade; NTA and I counted some 15 Oz number 10s who've plyed their trade os over the last ten years. Which left us short of backup to Larkham here in Oz resulting in centres such as Horan and Grey being pressed into the 10 jumper when Bernie was injured. Even Mat Rogers got a run as five-eighth.

As things stand now, Giteau and Daruda are the five-eighths for the Force (which resulted in Brock James, Lachlan MacKay and Jim Hilgendorf leaving the last few years), Cooper and Barnes for the Reds, Beale and Halangahu for the Tahs (with a Wallaby, SNK, as reserve for the reserve 10) and Lealiifano and To'omua for the Brumbies. A lot of width, as Lee might say.

Is there a future for the Rabbit in Oz rugby at number 10? Is there space?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

No Rabbit O'Connor. I honestly don't know what Rabbit's best position

Is there a future for the Rabbit in Oz rugby at number 10? Is there space?

With the plethora of talent we have it will be a very hard job but I just can't see him dominating in the the more mobile and bigger positions. He is quite small and there is no prospect of growth.
Heck, 30 years ago small players were the go or at least not too disadvantaged, however in today's modern game there is so much emphasis on size, weight and strength he is well and truly behind the 8 ball before he even starts.
The big plus for him is he has oodles of talent, is mercurial and can cause the defence severe headaches - but is he suited to the big boys game as he is??? I just dont know..