And to Wales

[Ash]

Whearas the Tahs don't have too much in the backs cupboard, at least the Wallabies can look forward to Shepherd, Barnes and Tuqiri coming back and the young blokes on tour blossoming next year. Barnes is the key IMO.

The Horner - Tahu combination (whichever is at 12) will be interesting to watch for the Tahs next year. I'm not holding my breath yet, though, as they may prove not to be compatible players in the midfield. Hangers and SNK are also possibilities for 12 with Carter, but I think they all are one or two rungs below Tahu and Horner. Unfortunately for the Wallabies, Horner is still a few years away and must overcome second year syndrome, and I doubt the ever-injured Tahu will even play half the season.

 

[Lee Grant]

Scotty,

Yeah there are some good signs but the secret is to have choices in all positions.

I am one of the minority who is in favour of getting a 5th Super team if we ever have the opportunity. It will depreciate results for Oz Super teams as a whole but I am sure that it will throw up a few more candidates for the Wallabies than we wouldn't get otherwise.

Who could argue that our 4th team hasn't helped already? I'm not just talking about the Force players but others who moved into spots that others vacated to get to the Force.

Don't ask me to do an exercise of who has played for the Wallabies this year who would not have made it had we still had 3 Super teams, because I'm going to have lunch.

And for those who reckon we wouldn't have enough flyhalves for a 5th team, consider whether Brock James or Paul Warwick would have gone overseas had there been a 5th team.

For those who haven't seen these guys since they played in Oz don't think of them in those terms, but how they are playing now. James is a rock at Clermont and Warwick has played well for Munster filling in for ROG when needed, and even at fullback. They rate him there as a good reserve and I can tell you he is good enough now to play S14.

Add a few other guys in other positions who might not have gone over there and take it into the future with different names of players who are going to go because we don't have a 5th team and the problem with manning that new team lessens.

I've said this before and I digress??? Excuuuuse me.


Ash,

I think that Horne will play 13 and Carter and Tahu fight it out for the 12 spot. Carter is limited but reliable and Tahu's medical prognosis looks bleak. If we use Horne at 12 then we have to find a 13 which may be harder than finding a 12.

The Oz Schools captain, Cameron Mitchell, will be pencilled in for a couple years down the track but he is crocked all the time already and I hope that he takes a gap year to refresh himself.

 

[RugbyReg]

Scotty,

I am one of the minority who is in favour of getting a 5th Super team if we ever have the opportunity.

I am another!!!

Don't ask me to do an exercise of who has played for the Wallabies this year who would not have made it had we still had 3 Super teams, because I'm going to have lunch.

I'll do it, full list of Wallabies this year and last. Highlighted are the ones I reckon wouldn't have played if it wasn't for the 4s.

Adam Ashley-Cooper
Adam Freier
Al Baxter
Ben Alexander
Benn Robinson
Berrick Barnes
Brett Sheehan
Cameron Shepherd
Chris Latham
Dan Vickerman
David Lyons
David Pocock
Dean Mumm
Digby Ione
Drew Mitchell
George Gregan
George Smith
Greg Holmes
Guy Shepherdson
Hugh McMeniman
James Horwill
James O'Connor
Julian Huxley
Lachlan Turner
Lote Tuqiri
Luke Burgess
Mark Chisolm
Mark Gerrard
Matt Dunning
Matt Giteau
Nathan Sharpe
Peter Hynes
Phil Waugh
Quade Cooper
Richard Brown
Rocky Elsom
Ryan Cross
Sam Cordingly
Sam Norton-Knight
Scott Staniforth
Sean Hardman
Sekope Kepu
Stephen Hoiles
Stephen Moore
Steve Larkham
Stirling Mortlock
Tatafu Polata-Nau
Timana Tahu
Wycliffe Palu

You could probably throw a few others (like Lachie Turner, Peter Hynes, Berrick, Benn Robinson, Brett Sheehan) perhaps as well.

And for those who reckon we wouldn't have enough flyhalves for a 5th team, consider whether Brock James or Paul Warwick would have gone overseas had there been a 5th team.

For those who haven't seen these guys since they played in Oz don't think of them in those terms, but how they are playing now. James is a rock at Clermont and Warwick has played well for Munster filling in for ROG when needed, and even at fullback. They rate him there as a good reserve and I can tell you he is good enough now to play S14.

Add a few other guys in other positions who might not have gone over there and take it into the future with different names of players who are going to go because we don't have a 5th team and the problem with manning that new team lessens.

Luke McLean too. Possibly Matt Brandon too.

 

[Scotty]

Scotty,

I am one of the minority who is in favour of getting a 5th Super team if we ever have the opportunity.

I am another!!!

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But not just for the reason of having more players. I think we need to push rugby into the spotlight in this country and the only way that can be done is by having teams throughout Australia, playing games at times that people are likely to watch. We need more games in our timezone - and more local derbies. We will never compete with AFL or League unless we can have a competition that runs for at least 20-25 weeks and features multiple games on at primetime.

I'm confident if this happens then we will increase rugby's share of the market and thus its financial position. League is in a weakened state at the moment - it is time for rugby to act and reinforce all of the benefits rugby has (and always will have) over league.

But, I've also said all of this before.... multiple times.

 

[formeropenside]

Noddy, I hate to disagree, but:

Adam Ashley-Cooper
Adam Freier
Al Baxter
Ben Alexander - impressed in the ARC, played hardly any S14, and was behind two Wallaby props and 2007 Aus A rep Ma'afu
Benn Robinson
Berrick Barnes
Brett Sheehan
Cameron Shepherd
Chris Latham
Dan Vickerman
David Lyons
David Pocock - might have got a gig as Croft's replacement in 2008 and enough time to shine, but I will give you this one
Dean Mumm - what second row/back row options did the Tahs lose to the Force again?
Digby Ioane - was a Wallaby in 2005 with TPN and Houston (well, on tour anyway)
Drew Mitchell
George Gregan
George Smith
Greg Holmes
Guy Shepherdson
Hugh McMeniman
James Horwill
James O'Connor - I will give you this, but how much game time did he have with the Force?
Julian Huxley - was an established S14 player who filled a gap due to injury
Lachlan Turner
Lote Tuqiri
Luke Burgess - Was Brumbies reserve 9 whereas previously Henjak or O'Young had that spot, so fair enough
Mark Chisolm
Mark Gerrard
Matt Dunning
Matt Giteau
Nathan Sharpe
Peter Hynes
Phil Waugh
Quade Cooper - Once Flatley took one too many blows to the head, he was always in the mix. Nothing to do with the Force.
Richard Brown - Agreed
Rocky Elsom
Ryan Cross - Would have gone to the Tahs as a convert. Therefore would have made test debut sooner.
Sam Cordingly - Already a test and top-line S14 player.
Sam Norton-Knight - Played a test due to injury, not the Force.
Scott Staniforth - Agreed
Sean Hardman
Sekope Kepu - Was poached by the Tahs from NZ when they already had 3 Wallaby props plus Tilse the Superprop.
Stephen Hoiles
Stephen Moore
Steve Larkham
Stirling Mortlock
Tatafu Polata-Nau
Timana Tahu - League poach that went to the Tahs. How was he not going to play Test rugby?
Wycliffe Palu

And for the record, I dont think we need a 5th team, much as I hate to disagree with LG and Noddy.

 

[RugbyReg]

Ben Alexander - impressed in the ARC, played hardly any S14, and was behind two Wallaby props and 2007 Aus A rep Ma'afu
- if Hardy, Cowan, Whalley, Takiari were still on the market, and Alexander went from ARC back to club footy (remembering he didn't have a contract at the time) who's to say he would've still got a contract?
Dean Mumm - what second row/back row options did the Tahs lose to the Force again?
- none, but the Force took Sharpe, Pusey, Hocking, O'Connor and a few others. Its a pool of talent dilution. Mumm may well have ended up coming through, but with only three teams it may well have taken longer.
Digby Ioane - was a Wallaby in 2005 with TPN and Houston (well, on tour anyway)
- he left QLD cause he wasn't getting game time. We had Wendell, Mitchell and Hynes with Latho at the back. He got game time and then an actual Wallaby jersey.
James O'Connor - I will give you this, but how much game time did he have with the Force?
- he started at least 3 times didn't he?
Julian Huxley - was an established S14 player who filled a gap due to injury
- was set to go overseas, but the Brumbies wanted an experienced back when Gits went West.
Quade Cooper - Once Flatley took one too many blows to the head, he was always in the mix. Nothing to do with the Force.
- quickened development when Mitchell, Daruda, Pelesasa, Giteau went west (we wanted to sign Gits).
Ryan Cross - Would have gone to the Tahs as a convert. Therefore would have made test debut sooner.
- why do you say he would have gone to the Tahs? If we didn't have the extra team, we didn't have the extra spaces for him or the extra money to pay for him.
Sam Cordingly - Already a test and top-line S14 player.
- Reds brought him back from OS remember because we lost Valentine to the Tahs etc
Sam Norton-Knight - Played a test due to injury, not the Force.
- again, take out Shepherd from the Tahs and his chances of playing for the Tahs is reduced
Sekope Kepu - Was poached by the Tahs from NZ when they already had 3 Wallaby props plus Tilse the Superprop.
- yeah but because they didn't have any of the 4 NSW based props mentioned under Alexander
Timana Tahu - League poach that went to the Tahs. How was he not going to play Test rugby?
- again, refer to Cross.

 

[Scotty]

How does that egg taste, former? Was it scrambled or fried?

 

[formeropenside]

Scotty - poached, actually.

 

[Scotty]

I hope you had some hollandaise and smoked salmon to go with it then!

 

[Gagger]

Scotty - such a new man! What happened to fried sausage & bacon?

Now back to topic....

That's the one, except Smith to start, Pocock to run on for exactly the reasons Spook just said.

There's still a chance at a clean sweep in Europe and Wales proved they could play a damn good half of footy on the weekend. There shouldn't be any gambles on young guns - Cooper, O'Connor, Pocock.

Re-learning how to win far more important than game time for greenhorns on this tour.

I understand the sentiment regarding learning to win, but I don't think it is the be all and end all for this tour. Developing a strong squad with back-ups in each position and improving the style of play that Deans wants is just as important. I think we are kidding ourselves if we are believe that our mental fortitude won the game for us on the weekend anymore than the french lost the game for themselves.

If we have not improved our play from what we've seen over the last few weeks, and don't have a quality squad, then we will have the same result in the 3N next that we did this year.

I loved this team selection because it said to me that Dingo is taking this test 100% seriously. Best indication of that being Robinson and Chis back to shore up the LH side, as well as strongest possible bench.

Scotty, I see what you're saying above, but there's that old addage that good/great teams even win when they play badly. It's good to see that finally seeming to fall our way, rather than another valiant loss like we had in the 3Ns.

I'd also argue that there are plenty of facets of the game that have really improved over this tour (most notable forward based) and plenty of young(ish)/new guns - Mumm, MMM, Brown, Alexander, Burgess, Cross, Ioane, Hynes... - who have got a damn good run out, without having to go experimental with the likes of Cooper (had his taste anyway), O'Connor and Pocock.

Above all, Deans realises the capital that bringing back a clean sweep of Europe gives him with fans, ARU, media and players. It would give him 10 wins from 14 tests this year and the first sweep of europe since the mid 90's.

After the plane home touches down, development tours gone wrong look just like they do in the history books - fucking disasters.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Spit damn oh my gosh - Palu is out for the remainder of the tour.
That is going to cause a huuuuge rethink I would imagine.

Injured Palu to miss rest of tour
Waugh back in the fold
Wycliff Palu will return home to Australia after being ruled out of the Wallabies' final two matches of their European spring tour.

The Australia No.8 suffered a reoccurrence of a long-standing shoulder injury during last Saturday night's 18-13 win over France in Paris.

The 26-year-old will undergo further scans when he arrives in Sydney on Friday night.

Wallabies coach Robbie Deans said the 'best thing' for Palu was to return to Australia immediately to seek further treatment.

"His shoulder hasn't responded to treatment over the last two days and it became clear that he wouldn't be available for either the Test against Wales or the tour-ending game against the Barbarians," Deans said.

The Wallabies made five changes to the team to face Wales on Sunday morning (AEDT).

The experienced Phil Waugh comes in for George Smith, while Richard Brown replaces Palu at No.8 and Hugh McMeniman shifts from the second row to blindside flanker. Mark Chisholm comes in at lock for McMeniman while Adam Ashley-Cooper makes way for Ryan Cross at outside centre.

Palu, who has 28 caps to his name, is the third Wallabies player to be sent home this tour, with centres Timana Tahu (hamstring) and Berrick Barnes (knee) returning to Australia a fortnight ago after being injured against Italy in Padova.

 

[Scotty]

Scotty - such a new man! What happened to fried sausage & bacon?

I don't live in the UK anymore!

Scotty, I see what you're saying above, but there's that old addage that good/great teams even win when they play badly. It's good to see that finally seeming to fall our way, rather than another valiant loss like we had in the 3Ns.

I agree, but what happens when Giteau and Barnes are out injured during next years 3N? Who do we use?

I'd also argue that there are plenty of facets of the game that have really improved over this tour (most notable forward based) and plenty of young(ish)/new guns - Mumm, MMM, Brown, Alexander, Burgess, Cross, Ioane, Hynes... - who have got a damn good run out, without having to go experimental with the likes of Cooper (had his taste anyway), O'Connor and Pocock.

I think the biggest improvement has occurred not with playing, but during the pre-tour camps. It is obvious that the defense and set piece was worked upon very strongly, and this was shown from the first game against the kiwis. What is not obvious to me is any improvement since this game against NZ - it was as good or better than any other performance on tour.

Yes, winning is a culture, but we have to accept there was some luck in our wins against the Italians (Coopers try) and French (poor goal kicking).

Where we have not improved at all (naza will back me up here) is in the backline play. It doesn't look like we can break down a defense at all, apart from if Mortlock breaks a tackle or two.

 

[Thomond78]

Yes, winning is a culture, but we have to accept there was some luck in our wins against the Italians (Coopers try) and French (poor goal kicking).

Noted and saved to the clipboard for future use on other threads, petal... O0

 

[cyclopath]

Where we have not improved at all (naza will back me up here) is in the backline play. It doesn't look like we can break down a defense at all, apart from if Mortlock breaks a tackle or two.

Very true. But I think with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13, and players like Ioane getting some time we would look more dangerous. The 10 / 12 nexus needs to be sorted though, and I'm really no clearer on how to do that.

 

[Lee Grant]

Very true about the backs - as yours truly has said many a time in the last few weeks: this is a very limited backline. And I have also have said that the main reason for this is the absence of Barnes at 12 where he has been playing this year.

Young Berrick presented our backline in a different light to opponents and he added value to Giteau inside him and Mortlock outside him.

It wasn't all sweetness and light when he played there as this year all the backs were a bit ham fisted in their passing skills, their vision of the game and other things outside of defending and running - but they were better with him.

Now we are playing with a 12 and 13 who have limited skills, (though in the case of Mortlock his ability to beat tacklers is world class), and they are not backs that who know how to give the golden ball with regularity.

Expect the rush defence on Saturday night.

I loved this team selection because it said to me that Dingo is taking this test 100% seriously. Best indication of that being Robinson and Chis back to shore up the LH side, as well as strongest possible bench.

It will be a cold day in hell before Sharpe vacates his spot behind the LHP. Chiz will be the TH lock as he was against England

 

[RugbyReg]

It will be a cold day in hell before Sharpe vacates his spot behind the LHP. Chiz will be the TH lock as he was against England

what is the forecast for Cardiff this weekend by the way?

 

[Scotty]

Noted and saved to the clipboard for future use on other threads, petal...

Thommo,

Please note I have subscribed to the view that the SH teams are winning because we are playing the FK ELVs and NH aren't.




I just think that the 3N are generally better.... ;D

(at the moment)

 

[PaarlBok]

The Wallabies will have to wear the SH flag this weekend. This one is the biggie and good luck for saturday. This weekend I am a kanarie supporter , only till wednesday when the BaaBaas wil bliksem you big time anyway. :lmao:

 

[naza]

Oh bloody hell. Alan Lewis, that muppet who ruined the Hong Kong Bledisloe, is reffing this match.

I would just pick and go all match. The only thing worrying me is our ability to cope with rush defence.

 

[PaarlBok]

OK Convicts, good luck for tomorrow, I am off and can relax you lot klapping the Dragon Druids!