2017 AAGPS/CAS Combined "Comp"

[Azzuri]

Both the AAGPS and CAS have determined that they will play a series of extended trials between their respective associations prior to the start of shortened versions (from 10 to 5 games) of their respective competitions for 2017.

Speculation abounds that this is the precursor to a schoolboy "super comp" for 2018 comprising AAGPS, CAS and potentially others...

This thread has been created to concentrate the wang about trial game results, format of the new comp and other associated prognostication in one spot rather than dilute the discussion related to the respective associations in their separate threads.

Wang away.....

 

[Wristman]

Much rather go back to the GPS comp of 10 games home and away.
If we really need to see who is better an end of season play off could be arranged CAS versus GPS premiere side (based on points difference if tied).
I think the GPS comp of recent years has really worked.
From a GPS perspective a couple of extra games against the better CAS sides is interesting but on balance we lose far more than we gain.
When you have to play the better GPS sides both home and away it's a real challenge and many games are close.
Last year the GPS competition was a thriller that came down to the wire with results in the final few games determining the season.
The top 2 CAS sides (currently Waverley and Knox) benefit far more from a combined competition than any of the GPS teams.

 

[Azzuri]

Much rather go back to the GPS comp of 10 games home and away.
If we really need to see who is better an end of season play off could be arranged CAS versus GPS premiere side (based on points difference if tied).
I think the GPS comp of recent years has really worked.
From a GPS perspective a couple of extra games against the better CAS sides is interesting but on balance we lose far more than we gain.
When you have to play the better GPS sides both home and away it's a real challenge and many games were close.
Last year the GPS competition was a thriller that came down to the wire with results in the final few games determining the season.
The top 2 CAS sides (currently Waverley and Knox) benefit far more from a combined competition than any of the GPS teams.

We don't always see eye to eye Wristy but on this occassion we are aligned.

It's been speculated that the current Frankenstein comp is supposedly the precurser to a combined comp for 2018.... which will do nothing more than concentrate the talent and resources associated with under 18 rugby development in the private school system.

This is hardly going to do anything about broadening the base and encouraging lads from the non private systems/ associations or club players to stay involved.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Much rather go back to the GPS comp of 10 games home and away.

I think the GPS comp of recent years has really worked.

Yes it has worked particularly well for $cots.

It been pretty fucked for schools that don't import players.



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[sidelineview]

If this experiment didnt include the goal of revitalising rugby in the public school sector as part of the big picture, then it would be disappointing.

I've mentioned this before, but Matraville High, the winner of 5 Waratah Shields and the home of the Ella brothers and Russell Fairfax dont even play rugby anymore.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Shore is the odd man out in the GPS comp and could do with playing easier matches.

There are a couple of schools in the CAS comp that would benefit from being in an easier comp. Although it does fluctuate from year to year. Eg. Cranbrook won the comp in 2014, but now are not considered to be one of the stronger CAS schools.

IMO this whole experiment is more to do with looking out for the weaker rugby schools. The strong ones were already doing OK.

 

[Wristman]

Yes it has worked particularly well for $cots.

It been pretty fucked for schools that don't import players.



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Oh Honey Badger!
You do yourself a disservice
There is another thread for the bitter and twisted where you can indulge yourself....but please try to rise above the petty grievances when participating here.

 

[Azzuri]

Yes it has worked particularly well for $cots.

It been pretty fucked for schools that don't import players.



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Not sure you can level that claim against Scots any longer.....certainly not to the same degree as a couple of years ago,

Its most probably a conversation for the Hotel California thread but I will be interested to see if the CAS sign up to the same no sporting scholarship "rules" that the AAGPS have agreed.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Oh Honey Badger!
You do yourself a disservice
There is another thread for the bitter and twisted where you can indulge yourself..but please try to rise above the petty grievances when participating here.

Its directly relevant here.
A reason why CAS seems to be getting the better of GPS in this pre-season trial period is the light that was shone into certain dark recesses: GPS has generally declined as a result.
Thats actually a good thing for rugby in the mid to long term.
And at whatever is their natural level of competition close games are better for everyone's rugby skills.

 

[Wristman]

Its directly relevant here.
A reason why CAS seems to be getting the better of GPS in this pre-season trial period is the light that was shone into certain dark recesses: GPS has generally declined as a result.
Thats actually a good thing for rugby in the mid to long term.
And at whatever is their natural level of competition close games are better for everyone's rugby skills.

My point is that the GPS has plenty of close games.
The 50 point blowouts from a few years ago have been replaced these last 2 seasons by close games between 5 evenly matched GPS schools. Even Shore have pushed the other 5 when they've been on song. It's been a fascinating closely fought competition.
I would question whether GPS has declined. I think the key difference is in the way a couple of the CAS teams have stepped up. Waverley teams of the past lacked match fitness and a game plan. This team by all reports (and results) seems to lack neither. Knox I will be able to assess next week.

I would further question whether CAS is getting the better of GPS this pre season.
Sorry to dampen your enthusiasm Inside Shoulder but I predict wins for both Newington and Scots next week as the GPS teams hit a full head to steam.
You heard it here first

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Sorry to dampen your enthusiasm Inside Shoulder but I predict wins for both Newington and Scots next week as the GPS teams hit a full head to steam.
You heard it here first

You're not dampening my enthusiasm: a de-emphasised GPS comp of 1 round and a resurgent CAS (whatever the cause) is precisely what I want(ed).

 

[sidelineview]

My point is that the GPS has plenty of close games.
The 50 point blowouts from a few years ago have been replaced these last 2 seasons by close games between 5 evenly matched GPS schools. Even Shore have pushed the other 5 when they've been on song. It's been a fascinating closely fought competition.
I would question whether GPS has declined. I think the key difference is in the way a couple of the CAS teams have stepped up. Waverley teams of the past lacked match fitness and a game plan. This team by all reports (and results) seems to lack neither. Knox I will be able to assess next week.

I would further question whether CAS is getting the better of GPS this pre season.
Sorry to dampen your enthusiasm Inside Shoulder but I predict wins for both Newington and Scots next week as the GPS teams hit a full head to steam.
You heard it here first

To clarify a point ''Waverley teams in the past lacked match fitness and a game plan'' ........

Waverley teams lacked the cattle.

Last year all the planets aligned and they found themselves with an abundance of talent and depth. They very nearly made a clean sweep of all Open age group CAS Premierships, as well as claiming a couple of under age group premiership.
They had very good match fitness and coaching.

The last time they won a comp in 2009, they had the same coach: Paul Cornish.
They've won the CAS Henry Plume Shield in 2000, 2002, 2004, 2007, 2009 and 2016 as well as being runner up a couple of times (2013 being the last).

This year there is also an abundance of talent in the 1sts and 2nds. The pick of the crop in 1sts are particularly talented and they've played with each other for years. It's one of those real good crop of kids you notice coming through the age groups from time to time.
Two years in a row is a bonus.
The depth is pretty good as well.

They have the same two teacher/coaches as last year (Cornish and Scott Coleman); they're fit and play the same expansive confident running style of rugby as last year, backed up by strong defence with plenty of mongrel in their general play. They have the skills and physicality to execute that style of play.

From year to year, it's the cattle that has changed; nothing else. It's the players that are available to play.

After this season and for the next couple of seasons the crop of players coming through are not as well performed.

So in a couple of years time if Waverley are still playing the strongest GPS/CAS teams it will probably be a completely different story. They'll more than likely struggle.

Scholarships were mentioned before.
I cant see how a school like Waverley can compete with the best of the best, year in, year out unless they take measures to maintain a consistency of emerging rugby talent (young league players would fit the bill).

 

[moa999]

Think it's also worth noting that the recent 2-round system is a relatively recent development.

Not many years ago the GPS comp was 8 teams and thus only one round and CAS was similarly one round. A similar lengthy pre-season to this year preceded the main comp.

--

As mentioned in the CAS thread my view of a possible comp would be
2-3 wks of actual trials
5 wks of GPS/CAS/ IAS comps - so you still have that history and additional qualification requirement

Then you break into a Div1/Div2/Div3 schoolboys comp - possibly 3 GPS, 2 CAS and 1 ISA for example.
The stronger GPS teams play each other twice and you add a few other stong games.

 

[Quick Hands]

You're not dampening my enthusiasm: a de-emphasised GPS comp of 1 round and a resurgent CAS (whatever the cause) is precisely what I want(ed).

Although I heard yesterday that one CAS school (not Knox or Waverley) is heavily getting into matters best discussed on the thread which dare not speak its name.

 

[BRUMBIEJACK]

To clarify a point ''Waverley teams in the past lacked match fitness and a game plan'' ....

Waverley teams lacked the cattle.

Last year all the planets aligned and they found themselves with an abundance of talent and depth. They very nearly made a clean sweep of all Open age group CAS Premierships, as well as claiming a couple of under age group premiership.
They had very good match fitness and coaching.

The last time they won a comp in 2009, they had the same coach: Paul Cornish.
They've won the CAS Henry Plume Shield in 2000, 2002, 2004, 2007, 2009 and 2016 as well as being runner up a couple of times (2013 being the last).

This year there is also an abundance of talent in the 1sts and 2nds. The pick of the crop in 1sts are particularly talented and they've played with each other for years. It's one of those real good crop of kids you notice coming through the age groups from time to time.
Two years in a row is a bonus.
The depth is pretty good as well.

They have the same two teacher/coaches as last year (Cornish and Scott Coleman); they're fit and play the same expansive confident running style of rugby as last year, backed up by strong defence with plenty of mongrel in their general play. They have the skills and physicality to execute that style of play.

From year to year, it's the cattle that has changed; nothing else. It's the players that are available to play.

After this season and for the next couple of seasons the crop of players coming through are not as well performed.

So in a couple of years time if Waverley are still playing the strongest GPS/CAS teams it will probably be a completely different story. They'll more than likely struggle.

Scholarships were mentioned before.
I cant see how a school like Waverley can compete with the best of the best, year in, year out unless they take measures to maintain a consistency of emerging rugby talent (young league players would fit the bill).

Lots of good points here. It is impossible to compare like with like. Just looking at the CAS Waverley has always had a good rugby culture and can pump out a decent # of rugby teams (around half of Year 7 sign up to play rugby which is great). Schools like Knox pump out a similar # of teams with 75% more students in each year and infinitely more resources. But both schools are doing the ARU's job for them by creating school-based rugby cultures w/o any real external support. And from my perspective the Knox silvertails v Waverley local working class lads adds a great aspect that is probably missing from GPS where it's difficult to portray any school as even vaguely working class.
But onto what the author wrote about - I was at the SJC game yesterday and thought that it was a great spectacle. Waverley had great depth last year but the 1sts (as good as they were) couldn't have done what this year's first can. This year's is a more complete team - both play the same style but this year's is a more complete team (although the year group's depth is probably not as good). And while many of the age teams learnt the value of well drilled rugby from SJC as they went down, those that stayed for the 1sts showed what can be achieved when good talents are harnessed in the correct way and with good focus.
Given the nature of the school Waverley will draw on their natural talents and history but the cattle will change from year to year - with no boarding or scholarships it's usually strong year groups that come through en masse that make a difference. The 13s group for example is strong and were in the junior school and, with the usual talent drain from Waverley in the junior years apparently subsiding this group will likely remain the next strong age group to come through.
Anyway, whatever happens in the future I've enjoyed watching Waverley's running game be introduced to GPS rugby with some success this year and hopefully it's inspired some boys at the school to continue with their rugby. This year's results aren't likely to be repeated next year but it's fun seeing Waverley's rugby pedigree on display in a good year for them and to show that, given the right year group local lads with teacher coaches can mix it with the best the GPS can put up. Rugby needs some good news stories and the success of Waverley's running rugby game can only be a good thing I would suggest.

 

[sidelineview]

A good thing indeed.
It may even look like fun and as you pointed out, will influence the young boys who aspire to be just like the Double V players.

 

[The Honey Badger]

Really, . Mods?
It's been so tame and quiet something had to be deleted

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[cyclopath]

Really, . Mods?
It's been so tame and quiet something had to be deleted

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That other thread exists for a purpose. Fairly self-explanatory, I'd have thought.

 

[Quick Hands]

You're not dampening my enthusiasm: a de-emphasised GPS comp of 1 round and a resurgent CAS (whatever the cause) is precisely what I want(ed).

Beware the law of unindtended consequnces IS. I foresee an arms race being joined by certain CAS schools if this "competition" formalised in any way.

 

[Azzuri]

Beware the law of unindtended consequnces IS. I foresee an arms race being joined by certain CAS schools if this "competition" formalised in any way.

What is that smell? Ah yes, it's the "warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air".....

 

[The Honey Badger]

I hear Pink Champaign is in short supply. Apparently a couple of big buyers on the upper North Shore

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